Hi there

Am 25.08.2014 um 08:07 schrieb Stephan:

Hello all

In my opinion, one could abandon DIDOK and import (and maintain) the stops from official Swiss schedule available at http://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/ (Link "Fahrplandaten"). Since May, the data is published every week. The format for HAFAS [1], but the stops and their coordinates can easily be extracted from one file (BFKOORD resp BFKOORD_GEO). To automate the import, one could also consider the GTFS version, which is offered by the private company geOps based on the official data, http://gtfs.geops.ch/.

One has to check the license agreement [2], though.

IMHO *this license is a NOGO*, tough.

OSM license: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright

is based on: http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/

and the license agreement (nutzungsrichtlinien) is not in compliance with OdBl and is a risk for developers or anybody who uses these data:

[2] excerpt license agreement http://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/de/fahrplandaten/nutzungsrichtlinien/ :

3. Nutzung der überlassenen Rohdaten

Der Datenbezüger ist berechtigt, die überlassenen Rohdaten entsprechend Ziff.3 dieser Lizenzvereinbarung zu verwenden. Der Bezüger ist berechtigt, die Rohdaten zu veredeln und in geeigneter Form zu publizieren. Der Bezüger verpflichtet sich die Rohdaten mindestens monatlich zu aktualisieren um eine aktuelle Fahrplanpublikation zu garantieren. Die gelieferten Rohdaten dürfen inhaltlich nicht verändert, verfälscht oder gelöscht werden. Eine Anreicherung der Fahrplaninformationen ist in dem Sinn gestattet, dass weitere Datensätze (Bsp. Belegungszahlen, etc.) zu den bestehenden Echtzeitdaten hinzugefügt werden dürfen. Eine kommerzielle Verwendung der Daten aus der Kundeninformationsplattform ist nicht gestattet. Für angereicherte Daten (Mehrwertangebote) ist eine Abgabe gegen Entgelt gestattet.

4. Pflichten der Bezüger

Der Bezüger verpflichtet sich, alle nach dem jeweils neusten Stand der Technik möglichen Vorkehren zu treffen, um eine unbefugte Verwendung der Rohdaten durch Dritte zu verhindern. Der Kunde verpflichtet sich, der SBB AG den Verwendungszweck der überlassenen Rohdaten bei Rückfrage bekannt zu geben. Die SBB AG ist berechtigt, die Einhaltung des Nutzungsrechtes jederzeit vor Ort selber zu überprüfen.

Cheeers, h.

Cheers Stephan

[1] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAFAS

[2] excerpt license agreement http://www.fahrplanfelder.ch/de/fahrplandaten/nutzungsrichtlinien/ :

3. Nutzung der überlassenen Rohdaten

Der Datenbezüger ist berechtigt, die überlassenen Rohdaten entsprechend Ziff.3 dieser Lizenzvereinbarung zu verwenden. Der Bezüger ist berechtigt, die Rohdaten zu veredeln und in geeigneter Form zu publizieren. Der Bezüger verpflichtet sich die Rohdaten mindestens monatlich zu aktualisieren um eine aktuelle Fahrplanpublikation zu garantieren. Die gelieferten Rohdaten dürfen inhaltlich nicht verändert, verfälscht oder gelöscht werden. Eine Anreicherung der Fahrplaninformationen ist in dem Sinn gestattet, dass weitere Datensätze (Bsp. Belegungszahlen, etc.) zu den bestehenden Echtzeitdaten hinzugefügt werden dürfen. Eine kommerzielle Verwendung der Daten aus der Kundeninformationsplattform ist nicht gestattet. Für angereicherte Daten (Mehrwertangebote) ist eine Abgabe gegen Entgelt gestattet.

4. Pflichten der Bezüger

Der Bezüger verpflichtet sich, alle nach dem jeweils neusten Stand der Technik möglichen Vorkehren zu treffen, um eine unbefugte Verwendung der Rohdaten durch Dritte zu verhindern. Der Kunde verpflichtet sich, der SBB AG den Verwendungszweck der überlassenen Rohdaten bei Rückfrage bekannt zu geben. Die SBB AG ist berechtigt, die Einhaltung des Nutzungsrechtes jederzeit vor Ort selber zu überprüfen.

2014-08-24 21:38 GMT+02:00 Michael Spreng <mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net mailto:mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net>:

Hello

I imported the newest dataset of public transport stops from the BAV
(Bundesamt für Verkehr), known as DIDOK list, into our comparison tool
at didok.osm.ch <http://didok.osm.ch>

I had a look at the stops where DIDOK and OSM disagree the most in
location (the stops where we have the largest distance between the OSM
coordinates and the DIDOK coordinates)
http://didok.osm.ch/#sw:9:46.903369:8.316650
And I made a few corrections to OSM data. Mostly there were issues with
OSM having a wrong uic_ref number attached to the stop.

For a few stops it seems the DIDOK data has improved, and we still have
the old DIDOK data which was imported in 2009 and was a few kilometres
off. But it seems there is no big potential for automated edits, this is
best done manually. I have found some stops where the new location is at
least as questionable as the old one (example
http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 The new DIDOK coordinates
are on the SW end of the black line. But to me it looks like
"Ennetturgi" is rather on the NE end)

Over all I think DIDOK has improved a bit, but there are still lots of
funny errors in it. For example here:
http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 they mixed up Gonten and
Gontenbad :) Too bad we couldn't motivate them to use OSM to check their
data.

I will follow up with one or two other DIDOK related topics in the next
few weeks. In the mean time please keep using our public transport check
tool. There are still lots of unchecked bus stops
(http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 the red circles) which
are potentially totally wrong data from DIDOK.

Have a nice week
Michael
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Am 25.08.2014 um 08:39 schrieb michael spreng:

I regret that I can not make it to the opendata workshop about public transport data.

Michael

Same here, I can't make it either.

One one hand, it would make sense, that somebody of SOSM shos up at this workshop in oder to present OSM's point of view, specially in regards of ODbL.

But, on the other hand, I have my strong doubts, if it even make sense to participate at this workshop, as the actual "Nutzungsbedingungen" of SBB & Co are not at all in compliance with ODbL, thus waste of time, which we may use more productive for mapping.

cheers, h.

Hi,

1. OSM maps reality. If the bus stop is labeled on the ground as "Poststrasse", then name="Poststrasse". => if I come along imported stops which are still named as in DIDOK, e.g. "Uster, Poststrasse" I always correct them to "Poststrasse".

2. I don't understand your point. You ask for how to correct the DIDOK data? => Ask the BAV to use OSM to check their data!

nounours77

Am 25.08.2014 um 10:26 schrieb Hidden Name hidden_name@outlook.com:

Hello

Now, where we have the latest data, I would like to check and modify all bus stops in my neighbourhood. But I've 2 Questions:

1. How we handle the current naming: name="Poststrasse" (Tagging-Scheme like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/DIDOK) or name="Uster, Poststrasse". Due to many bus stops with a name like the second example, I don't know which one I should use.

2. Where I can tell errors in the DIDOK data. As an example I have a case, that the bus stop was correctly imported from DIDOK 2009, but now it hasn't a space between comma and second name anymore. That would be an error in the current DIDOK data, but it's shown as "wrong uic_name...".

Thanks!

...

Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 21:38:48 +0200 From: mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net To: talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Subject: [talk-ch] update public transport stops

Hello

I imported the newest dataset of public transport stops from the BAV (Bundesamt für Verkehr), known as DIDOK list, into our comparison tool at didok.osm.ch

I had a look at the stops where DIDOK and OSM disagree the most in location (the stops where we have the largest distance between the OSM coordinates and the DIDOK coordinates) http://didok.osm.ch/#sw:9:46.903369:8.316650 And I made a few corrections to OSM data. Mostly there were issues with OSM having a wrong uic_ref number attached to the stop.

For a few stops it seems the DIDOK data has improved, and we still have the old DIDOK data which was imported in 2009 and was a few kilometres off. But it seems there is no big potential for automated edits, this is best done manually. I have found some stops where the new location is at least as questionable as the old one (example http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 The new DIDOK coordinates are on the SW end of the black line. But to me it looks like "Ennetturgi" is rather on the NE end)

Over all I think DIDOK has improved a bit, but there are still lots of funny errors in it. For example here: http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 they mixed up Gonten and Gontenbad :) Too bad we couldn't motivate them to use OSM to check their data.

I will follow up with one or two other DIDOK related topics in the next few weeks. In the mean time please keep using our public transport check tool. There are still lots of unchecked bus stops (http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 the red circles) which are potentially totally wrong data from DIDOK.

Have a nice week Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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On 25/08/14 10:26, Hidden Name wrote:

Hello

Now, where we have the latest data, I would like to check and modify all bus stops in my neighbourhood. But I've 2 Questions:

1. How we handle the current naming: name="Poststrasse"

(Tagging-Scheme like http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/DIDOK) or name="Uster, Poststrasse". Due to many bus stops with a name like the second example, I don't know which one I should use.

The uic name seems to always contain the town for bus stops. Lacking any better guess we copied the uic name to the name= tag when we did the import. That explains why you see so many stops with such names. Simply no one touched the name yet. But When you check the stop, write to the name tag what you actually see on the sign post. Even if the town appears on the sign, but is written in a significantly smaller font size, we omit it from the name tag.

2. Where I can tell errors in the DIDOK data. As an example I have a

case, that the bus stop was correctly imported from DIDOK 2009, but now it hasn't a space between comma and second name anymore. That would be an error in the current DIDOK data, but it's shown as "wrong uic_name...".

There is a link for sending a message on this page: http://www.bav.admin.ch/dokumentation/publikationen/00475/01497/index.html I once wrote them about some particular errors and they were glad about the message. So you can try to send your error there, maybe they are interested.

Have a lot of fun checking the bus stops :) Michael

Hi Fredj

If you take information from DIDOK, yes please provide the source. This could make it easier for future editors to see what the state is.

It should also be acceptable to remove the source tag and provide the source in the changeset as the source= tag

Actually the year would already be 2015, as I imported the list for after the next time table change (which is due in December) I need to document this in a better way.

Michael

On 2014-08-25 14:37, Frédéric Junod wrote:

Hello,

Should the source be updated as well?

The value is: "Bundesamt für Verkehr (BAV), DIDOK 2009" should I update it to: "Bundesamt für Verkehr (BAV), DIDOK 2014" ?

Thanks,

fredj

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:38 PM, Michael Spreng < mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net> wrote:

...

Hello

I imported the newest dataset of public transport stops from the BAV (Bundesamt für Verkehr), known as DIDOK list, into our comparison tool at didok.osm.ch

I had a look at the stops where DIDOK and OSM disagree the most in location (the stops where we have the largest distance between the OSM coordinates and the DIDOK coordinates) http://didok.osm.ch/#sw:9:46.903369:8.316650 And I made a few corrections to OSM data. Mostly there were issues with OSM having a wrong uic_ref number attached to the stop.

For a few stops it seems the DIDOK data has improved, and we still have the old DIDOK data which was imported in 2009 and was a few kilometres off. But it seems there is no big potential for automated edits, this is best done manually. I have found some stops where the new location is at least as questionable as the old one (example http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 The new DIDOK coordinates are on the SW end of the black line. But to me it looks like "Ennetturgi" is rather on the NE end)

Over all I think DIDOK has improved a bit, but there are still lots of funny errors in it. For example here: http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 they mixed up Gonten and Gontenbad :) Too bad we couldn't motivate them to use OSM to check their data.

I will follow up with one or two other DIDOK related topics in the next few weeks. In the mean time please keep using our public transport check tool. There are still lots of unchecked bus stops (http://didok.osm.ch/#sc:14:47.491631:8.254766 the red circles) which are potentially totally wrong data from DIDOK.

Have a nice week Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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