I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
Hi Simon,
thanks for this list.
But I found a little problem: On french streetnames, if a word starts with an letter with an accent, the GWR-Names don't have this accent, and this isn't correct. p.e. two Streets in Fribourg: GWR-Name: Rue des Ecoles OSM-Name: Rue des Écoles (correct)
GWR-Name: Rue des Epouses OSM-Name: Rue des Épouses (correct)
And "school" in french is written as école and not ecole. The same for épouses.
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Yes, as I point out on the wiki page, it is wrong to assume that the GWR name is always what we actually want to have in OSM.
For the stuff I've checked, I have:
- resurveyed the street (checked what is actually on the sign) - checked that OSM has the non-abbreviated Version of what is on the sign - if there is still a conflict with the GWR, added the GWR name as official_name (not 100% satisfactory but better than leaving a false positive around)
Simon
Am 07.11.2012 09:53, schrieb Fred Jelk:
Hi Simon,
thanks for this list.
But I found a little problem: On french streetnames, if a word starts with an letter with an accent, the GWR-Names don't have this accent, and this isn't correct. p.e. two Streets in Fribourg: GWR-Name: Rue des Ecoles OSM-Name: Rue des Écoles (correct)
GWR-Name: Rue des Epouses OSM-Name: Rue des Épouses (correct)
And "school" in french is written as école and not ecole. The same for épouses.
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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It makes sense, GWR being considered as official_name.
Yves
2012/11/7 Simon Poole simon@poole.ch
Yes, as I point out on the wiki page, it is wrong to assume that the GWR name is always what we actually want to have in OSM.
For the stuff I've checked, I have:
- resurveyed the street (checked what is actually on the sign)
- checked that OSM has the non-abbreviated Version of what is on the sign
- if there is still a conflict with the GWR, added the GWR name as
official_name (not 100% satisfactory but better than leaving a false positive around)
Simon
Am 07.11.2012 09:53, schrieb Fred Jelk:
Hi Simon,
thanks for this list.
But I found a little problem: On french streetnames, if a word starts with an letter with an accent, the GWR-Names don't have this accent, and this isn't correct. p.e. two Streets in Fribourg: GWR-Name: Rue des Ecoles OSM-Name: Rue des Écoles (correct)
GWR-Name: Rue des Epouses OSM-Name: Rue des Épouses (correct)
And "school" in french is written as école and not ecole. The same for épouses.
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 10:56:25AM +0100, Simon Poole wrote:
Yes, as I point out on the wiki page, it is wrong to assume that the GWR name is always what we actually want to have in OSM.
For the stuff I've checked, I have:
- resurveyed the street (checked what is actually on the sign)
- checked that OSM has the non-abbreviated Version of what is on the sign
- if there is still a conflict with the GWR, added the GWR name as
official_name (not 100% satisfactory but better than leaving a false positive around)
I was once told that leaving out the accent on 'majuscules' is perfectly valid in French and I've certainly seen it done frequently. You might want to consider not flagging that as an error.
The same is true for Hyphens. Not even street signs in the same street agree on the correct use for them.
Sarah
Am 07.11.2012 09:53, schrieb Fred Jelk:
Hi Simon,
thanks for this list.
But I found a little problem: On french streetnames, if a word starts with an letter with an accent, the GWR-Names don't have this accent, and this isn't correct. p.e. two Streets in Fribourg: GWR-Name: Rue des Ecoles OSM-Name: Rue des Écoles (correct)
GWR-Name: Rue des Epouses OSM-Name: Rue des Épouses (correct)
And "school" in french is written as école and not ecole. The same for épouses.
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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2012/11/7 Sarah Hoffmann lonvia@denofr.de:
On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 10:56:25AM +0100, Simon Poole wrote:
I was once told that leaving out the accent on 'majuscules' is perfectly valid in French and I've certainly seen it done frequently. You might want to consider not flagging that as an error.
The same is true for Hyphens. Not even street signs in the same street agree on the correct use for them.
Sarah
In Swiss French typography (Guide du Typographe romand) there is no accent on capital letters. But in France, most books, and all high quality books, have accents on capitals. For the Académie française, omitting an accent is always an error.
For hyphens in street names, there are rules for them (for instance from Lexique des règles typographiques en usage à l'Imprimerie Nationale) but the rule is often ignored. In France, the post requires words without hyphens, to help OCR.
This morning, I looked at the street signs near Geneva, and used hyphens, some other not. Opentreetmap seems to agree with the signs more than GWR.
Marc Mongenet
Am 07.11.2012 16:41, schrieb Marc Mongenet:
2012/11/7 Sarah Hoffmannlonvia@denofr.de:
On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 10:56:25AM +0100, Simon Poole wrote: I was once told that leaving out the accent on 'majuscules' is perfectly valid in French and I've certainly seen it done frequently. You might want to consider not flagging that as an error.
The same is true for Hyphens. Not even street signs in the same street agree on the correct use for them.
Sarah
In Swiss French typography (Guide du Typographe romand) there is no accent on capital letters. But in France, most books, and all high quality books, have accents on capitals. For the Académie française, omitting an accent is always an error.
Interesting, it's the same in Swiss-german.
In German-Germany you can write Ärzte or Übungen but in German-Switzerland you have to write Aerzte and Uebungen
André
On 07.11.2012 16:49, ZorkNika wrote:
Interesting, it's the same in Swiss-german.
In German-Germany you can write Ärzte or Übungen but in German-Switzerland you have to write Aerzte and Uebungen
Are you serious? I always thought that was the inability of some people to properly use a Swiss German keyboard (to write a capital Ä, Ö or Ü you need to use the caps lock key, shift produces à, é and è).
Any sources for this rule? :)
Danilo
In french, normally, we don't use the accent on the capital letters. Le 7 nov. 2012 19:01, "Danilo" gezuru@gmail.com a écrit :
On 07.11.2012 16:49, ZorkNika wrote:
Interesting, it's the same in Swiss-german.
In German-Germany you can write Ärzte or Übungen but in German-Switzerland you have to write Aerzte and Uebungen
Are you serious? I always thought that was the inability of some people to properly use a Swiss German keyboard (to write a capital Ä, Ö or Ü you need to use the caps lock key, shift produces à, é and è).
Any sources for this rule? :)
Danilo _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Wie bei uns Ortschaftsnamen geschrieben werden (sollten) ist festglegt. Nachzulesen unter http://www.cadastre.ch/internet/cadastre/de/home/topics/geonames/doku.html Wie die accent in der französischen Schweiz gehandhabt werden müssen ist eventuell auch irgendwo festgeschrieben. Soll ich beim Bundesamt für Landestopografie mal anfragen (Die haben die Hoheit über solche Festlegungen). Dies könnte evetuell lange Diskusionen ersparen :D
Hubert
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
Datum: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:02:46 +0100 Von: RB tanrub@gmail.com An: "Openstreetmap Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera/Svizra" talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Betreff: Re: [talk-ch] Street name comparison for all of Switzerland
In french, normally, we don't use the accent on the capital letters. Le 7 nov. 2012 19:01, "Danilo" gezuru@gmail.com a écrit :
On 07.11.2012 16:49, ZorkNika wrote:
Interesting, it's the same in Swiss-german.
In German-Germany you can write Ärzte or Übungen but in German-Switzerland you have to write Aerzte and Uebungen
Are you serious? I always thought that was the inability of some people to properly use a Swiss German keyboard (to write a capital Ä, Ö or Ü you need to use the caps lock key, shift produces à, é and è).
Any sources for this rule? :)
Danilo _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Am 07.11.2012 17:01, schrieb Danilo:
On 07.11.2012 16:49, ZorkNika wrote:
Interesting, it's the same in Swiss-german.
In German-Germany you can write Ärzte or Übungen but in German-Switzerland you have to write Aerzte and Uebungen
Are you serious? I always thought that was the inability of some people to properly use a Swiss German keyboard (to write a capital Ä, Ö or Ü you need to use the caps lock key, shift produces à, é and è).
Any sources for this rule? :)
http://sok.ch/woerterlisten/8-empfehlungen-der-sok-zu-nichtorthographischen-...
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/news/publikationen.Document.8046... * But I did not actually find a online source where the Ä -> Ae etc. rule applys in swiss-german
André
Hi Simon,
o.k. I think, in french (Switzerland), the capital letters are without an accent. I will change these names in OSM.
But, now I've found an other Problem: In Schmitten FR [1] is a road in GWR named as an short-name: F. X. Müllerstrasse. The real Name is "Franz Xaver Müllerstrasse". And in OSM it is named like this. Till now, I thinked, we shouldn't use short names in OSM. I hope, this is still right.
The problem is: if other users see on the GWR-list some other shorten streetnames, it will be possible, that they will change the name that it match to the GWR-list.
[1] http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/FR/2305.html
Fred
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Isn't there a consensus to have what is written on street plates in the 'name' tag ?
On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Yves yvecai@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't there a consensus to have what is written on street plates in the 'name' tag ?
I hope not, personally. Street plates are very inconsistent even in a single village.
I know of at least one case in Givisiez where two plates on the same street have a different name on them, because of a typo.
And in les Geneveys-sur-Coffrane, which I mapped recently, some plates are in capitals only without accents (e.g. "RUE DES MELEZES" [the last word should be Mélèzes]), others are in capitals only but with accents (e.g. "RUE DES CRÔTETS") and the more recent ones are only capitalized, and with accents. There's even a funny case where two adjacent plates follow two different conventions despite the fact that the street names are almost the same: the two plates read "RUE DES FRÊNES" and "RUE DES FRENES-DESSOUS" (notice the lack of accent in the second plate). I think we should strive for something better and more consistent in OSM, fixing obvious errors and agreeing on one convention for capitalization.
Michel.
Hi
On 09.11.2012 14:32, Michel Schinz wrote:
agreeing on one convention for capitalization.
No, don't make some arbitrary rules. If you want consistent capitalization for your application/renderer, the right thing to do is to apply this rules to your local copy of osm data. It is always easy to apply some strict rules with an algorithm.
Of course, feel free to use common sense to resolve contradictions ("[...] better and more consistent in OSM, fixing obvious errors"). Like in the examples you described, you usually have a feeling for what it should be. If they used an all caps font which dropped the accents, add them, fair enough. Also the information of capital letters is lost with an all caps font. Now you could look what kind of capitalization is common in that region, and apply that. Or use rules from swisstopo.
And of course expand abbreviations. That would be really hard for an algorithm to get right.
In short, the rule should be: name tag is what is written on the street sign. But take it with a grain of salt.
Back on-topic: I like the GWR comparison. Already searched and mapped some streets in my vicinity.
I noticed a lot of "places" in my community which are names of farms. Don't know where to get the information for those best.
Michael
Am 09.11.2012 16:10, schrieb Michael Spreng:
I noticed a lot of "places" in my community which are names of farms. Don't know where to get the information for those best.
Ask the farmer? :-)
There is a more general issue though, I currently don't take landuse with a name in to account on the grounds that such nodes/areas should have a place tag on them too. Unluckily adding a place tag to a landuse causes the name no longer to be rendered in the standard "Mapnik" style (and adding a separate node probably has other undesirable side effects). While one could take a purist standpoint on this, essentially it is extremely unlikely that people are going to add tags that cause something that already "worked" to "break".
In conclusion I would tend to add the named landuses as OK to my script, any other opinions?
Simon
In Winterthur is a strange case:
Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse
The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street.
Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ?
Regards
mdk
Dear all
The designation of geographic place names is very well regulated. Although there are sometimes deviations for historical and other reasons. And there are even lively discussions between historicians, linguists and others.
This is the official page about geographic names: http://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/internet/swisstopo/en/home/topics/toponymie.ht...
And this is an inofficial - but at least for German very up-to-date - Wiki page about almost all questions around geographic names: http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_geografische_Namen
If there is any specific question I can forward them to experts in german and french at Swisstopo.
Stefan
2012/11/9 Michael Kleidt m_kleidt@bluewin.ch
In Winterthur is a strange case:
Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street.
Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ?
Regards
mdk
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It may be very well regulated, but that doesn't stop people from making mistakes.
An (non-name) example: http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/AG/4001.html There are three obviously wrong PLZ6 values (this is actually a surprise since it would be easy to catch these automatically). I suspect these are simple typos during data entry, it is unreasonable to expect it to be different with names. If we suspect a real error, best would to check with the municipality in question since they did the data entry in the first place.
Simon
Am 11.11.2012 23:36, schrieb Stefan Keller:
Dear all
The designation of geographic place names is very well regulated. Although there are sometimes deviations for historical and other reasons. And there are even lively discussions between historicians, linguists and others.
This is the official page about geographic names: http://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/internet/swisstopo/en/home/topics/toponymie.ht...
And this is an inofficial - but at least for German very up-to-date - Wiki page about almost all questions around geographic names: http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_geografische_Namen
If there is any specific question I can forward them to experts in german and french at Swisstopo.
Stefan
2012/11/9 Michael Kleidt <m_kleidt@bluewin.ch mailto:m_kleidt@bluewin.ch>
In Winterthur is a strange case: Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street. Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ? Regards mdk _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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Agreed.
One of the experts from Swisstopo responded recently after I gave him the hint that OSM is doing a comparison.
He answered: << Die Schreibweisen im GWR haben m.E. eine sehr gute Qualittät. (...). Gerade aber beim Ae, Oe, Ue resp. Ä, Ö, Ü existiert heute kein Standard ausser, dass man pro Gemeinde einheitlich schreibt. Ich habe das Wiki durch folgende Erläuterungen ergänzt: [1]. Wichtig scheint mir auch, dass man in OSM die Version verwendet Ae/OE/Ue resp. Ä Ö Ü, welche offiziell ist (d.h. die Schrweibweise von GWR zu verweden, würde ich immer empfehlen). <<
Stefan
[1] http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_Strassennamen#N.C3.A4heres_zu_Umlauten_vo...
2012/11/12 Simon Poole simon@poole.ch
It may be very well regulated, but that doesn't stop people from making mistakes.
An (non-name) example: http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/AG/4001.html There are three obviously wrong PLZ6 values (this is actually a surprise since it would be easy to catch these automatically). I suspect these are simple typos during data entry, it is unreasonable to expect it to be different with names. If we suspect a real error, best would to check with the municipality in question since they did the data entry in the first place.
Simon
Am 11.11.2012 23:36, schrieb Stefan Keller:
Dear all
The designation of geographic place names is very well regulated. Although there are sometimes deviations for historical and other reasons. And there are even lively discussions between historicians, linguists and others.
This is the official page about geographic names: http://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/internet/swisstopo/en/home/topics/toponymie.ht...
And this is an inofficial - but at least for German very up-to-date - Wiki page about almost all questions around geographic names: http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_geografische_Namen
If there is any specific question I can forward them to experts in german and french at Swisstopo.
Stefan
2012/11/9 Michael Kleidt m_kleidt@bluewin.ch
In Winterthur is a strange case:
Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street.
Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ?
Regards
mdk
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Simon, Can you also list the streets *do* match? Like perhaps at the bottom in green or something?
Am 11/12/12 9:28 AM, schrieb Stefan Keller:
Agreed.
One of the experts from Swisstopo responded recently after I gave him the hint that OSM is doing a comparison.
He answered: << Die Schreibweisen im GWR haben m.E. eine sehr gute Qualittät. (...). Gerade aber beim Ae, Oe, Ue resp. Ä, Ö, Ü existiert heute kein Standard ausser, dass man pro Gemeinde einheitlich schreibt. Ich habe das Wiki durch folgende Erläuterungen ergänzt: [1]. Wichtig scheint mir auch, dass man in OSM die Version verwendet Ae/OE/Ue resp. Ä Ö Ü, welche offiziell ist (d.h. die Schrweibweise von GWR zu verweden, würde ich immer empfehlen). <<
Stefan
[1] http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_Strassennamen#N.C3.A4heres_zu_Umlauten_vo...
2012/11/12 Simon Poole <simon@poole.ch mailto:simon@poole.ch>
It may be very well regulated, but that doesn't stop people from making mistakes. An (non-name) example: http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/AG/4001.html There are three obviously wrong PLZ6 values (this is actually a surprise since it would be easy to catch these automatically). I suspect these are simple typos during data entry, it is unreasonable to expect it to be different with names. If we suspect a real error, best would to check with the municipality in question since they did the data entry in the first place. Simon Am 11.11.2012 23:36, schrieb Stefan Keller:Dear all The designation of geographic place names is very well regulated. Although there are sometimes deviations for historical and other reasons. And there are even lively discussions between historicians, linguists and others. This is the official page about geographic names: http://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/internet/swisstopo/en/home/topics/toponymie.html And this is an inofficial - but at least for German very up-to-date - Wiki page about almost all questions around geographic names: http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_geografische_Namen If there is any specific question I can forward them to experts in german and french at Swisstopo. Stefan 2012/11/9 Michael Kleidt <m_kleidt@bluewin.ch <mailto:m_kleidt@bluewin.ch>> In Winterthur is a strange case: Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street. Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ? Regards mdk _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch_______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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There are two further lists that could be generated, all names that matched and all names that didn't.
I haven't included them up to now, because I considered them.a distraction from the core issue. However my intention was always to provide them at a later date.
Simon
Kal Conley kcconley@gmail.com schrieb:
Simon, Can you also list the streets *do* match? Like perhaps at the bottom in green or something?
Am 11/12/12 9:28 AM, schrieb Stefan Keller:
Agreed.
One of the experts from Swisstopo responded recently after I gave him the hint that OSM is doing a comparison.
He answered: << Die Schreibweisen im GWR haben m.E. eine sehr gute Qualittät. (...). Gerade aber beim Ae, Oe, Ue resp. Ä, Ö, Ü existiert heute kein Standard ausser, dass man pro Gemeinde einheitlich schreibt. Ich habe das Wiki durch folgende Erläuterungen ergänzt: [1]. Wichtig scheint mir auch, dass man in OSM die Version verwendet Ae/OE/Ue resp. Ä Ö Ü, welche offiziell ist (d.h. die Schrweibweise
von
GWR zu verweden, würde ich immer empfehlen). <<
Stefan
[1]
http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_Strassennamen#N.C3.A4heres_zu_Umlauten_vo...
2012/11/12 Simon Poole <simon@poole.ch mailto:simon@poole.ch>
It may be very well regulated, but that doesn't stop people from making mistakes. An (non-name) example: http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/AG/4001.html There are three obviously wrong PLZ6 values (this is actually a surprise since it would be easy to catch these automatically). I suspect these are simple typos during data entry, it is unreasonable to expect it to be different with names. If we suspect a real error, best would to check with the municipalityin
question since they did the data entry in the first place. Simon Am 11.11.2012 23:36, schrieb Stefan Keller:Dear all The designation of geographic place names is very wellregulated.
Although there are sometimes deviations for historical and other reasons. And there are even lively discussions between historicians, linguists and others. This is the official page about geographic names:http://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/internet/swisstopo/en/home/topics/toponymie.ht...
And this is an inofficial - but at least for German very up-to-date - Wiki page about almost all questions around geographic names: http://giswiki.hsr.ch/Schreibweise_geografische_Namen If there is any specific question I can forward them to experts in german and french at Swisstopo. Stefan 2012/11/9 Michael Kleidt <m_kleidt@bluewin.ch <mailto:m_kleidt@bluewin.ch>> In Winterthur is a strange case: Hessengütlistrasse road Hessengüetlistrasse The street signs on both ends of the street are showing "Hessengüetlistrasse". The near hotel is named 'Hotel Hessengüetli' and is in the 'Im Hessengüetli' street. Is this a typo in the offical Data? Should I tag it with official_name=Hessengütlistrasse ? Regards mdk _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch_______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch <mailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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Am 09.11.2012 10:13, schrieb Fred Jelk:
Hi Simon,
o.k. I think, in french (Switzerland), the capital letters are without an accent. I will change these names in OSM.
IMHO I would leave what is -really- on the sign in name (abbreviations expanded), and add the GWR value to "official_name" if it is different (only IMHO). But if the name on the sign doesn't have capital letters with an accent it is clearly not necessary to add them.
But, now I've found an other Problem: In Schmitten FR [1] is a road in GWR named as an short-name: F. X. Müllerstrasse. The real Name is "Franz Xaver Müllerstrasse". And in OSM it is named like this. Till now, I thinked, we shouldn't use short names in OSM. I hope, this is still right.
The problem is: if other users see on the GWR-list some other shorten streetnames, it will be possible, that they will change the name that it match to the GWR-list.
There is a similar case in Wettingen (and I'm sure many more):
SIgn posted: Alb.-Zwyssigstrasse Expanded (in name): Alberich-Zwyssigstrasse (really not easy to guess)
I've added
alt_name: Alb.-Zwyssigstrasse
and
official_name: Alb. Zwyssigstrasse (for the GWR version of the name).
I wouldn't claim that it is a good solution, but at least it is clear to somebody editing the object that everything is OK and that there is no need to "fix" something. In the grand scheme of things there are not so many such cases, so I beleive it is worth the effort to add the additional name versions to the DB.
Simon
On Fri, Nov 09, 2012 at 11:19:41AM +0100, Simon Poole wrote:
Am 09.11.2012 10:13, schrieb Fred Jelk:
Hi Simon,
o.k. I think, in french (Switzerland), the capital letters are without an accent. I will change these names in OSM.
IMHO I would leave what is -really- on the sign in name (abbreviations expanded), and add the GWR value to "official_name" if it is different (only IMHO). But if the name on the sign doesn't have capital letters with an accent it is clearly not necessary to add them.
+100
Do not change name just because the GWR list says so.
There is a similar case in Wettingen (and I'm sure many more):
SIgn posted: Alb.-Zwyssigstrasse Expanded (in name): Alberich-Zwyssigstrasse (really not easy to guess)
I've added
alt_name: Alb.-Zwyssigstrasse
I can see the use for that because guessing the abbriviation for Alberich is not exactly trivial.
and
official_name: Alb. Zwyssigstrasse (for the GWR version of the name).
Having alternative names just for a difference in accent or hyphenation is really overkill. Any software that uses the name tag should be able to do a fuzzy match betwenn the different versions. If it doesn't, bug the developer to fix the software.
Sarah
grummel... I think, the GWR-List is a good help, but I think, its inconsistent with the umlauts at the first letter of names.
p.e Ättenberg in Plaffeien FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ättenberg
p.e. Ättenbergstrasse in Plaffeien FR (the road) in GWR its written as Aettenbergstrasse
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried (the road) in GWR its written as Ägerte
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ägerte
Fred
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
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Just to re-iterate what I have already said, yes there are going to be differences (and it would be wrong to expect the GWR to be 100% consistent). The point is to resurvey such cases and make sure that what is in the name tag is what is actually on the sign (since most of the stuff that I have mapped in the last year or so I have on video or photographs, I've looked at them again where necessary and fixed typos on my behalf).
I'm suggesting the use of the "official_name" tag for cases where there is a difference essentially as a flag that says "yes I was there and there is a difference" (with the hope that using official_name is clear enough even for mappers that haven't been following the discussion).
What is open to discussion is if we should consider differences in case and punctuation significant enough to warrant flagging them (which probably would include accents on capital letters).
Simon
Am 09.11.2012 11:33, schrieb Fred Jelk:
grummel... I think, the GWR-List is a good help, but I think, its inconsistent with the umlauts at the first letter of names.
p.e Ättenberg in Plaffeien FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ättenberg
p.e. Ättenbergstrasse in Plaffeien FR (the road) in GWR its written as Aettenbergstrasse
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried (the road) in GWR its written as Ägerte
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ägerte
Fred
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
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Am 11/9/12 12:25 PM, schrieb Simon Poole:
Just to re-iterate what I have already said, yes there are going to be differences (and it would be wrong to expect the GWR to be 100% consistent). The point is to resurvey such cases and make sure that what is in the name tag is what is actually on the sign (since most of the stuff that I have mapped in the last year or so I have on video or photographs, I've looked at them again where necessary and fixed typos on my behalf).
I'm suggesting the use of the "official_name" tag for cases where there is a difference essentially as a flag that says "yes I was there and there is a difference" (with the hope that using official_name is clear enough even for mappers that haven't been following the discussion).
What is open to discussion is if we should consider differences in case and punctuation significant enough to warrant flagging them (which probably would include accents on capital letters).
What about starting with something very conservative? Given the "official" rules, if the OSM way has a word starting with Ae/Oe/Ue AND GWR has Ä/Ö/Ü instead, respectively, then don't flag in this case?
Simon
Am 09.11.2012 11:33, schrieb Fred Jelk:
grummel... I think, the GWR-List is a good help, but I think, its inconsistent with the umlauts at the first letter of names.
p.e Ättenberg in Plaffeien FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ättenberg
p.e. Ättenbergstrasse in Plaffeien FR (the road) in GWR its written as Aettenbergstrasse
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried (the road) in GWR its written as Ägerte
p.e. Ägerte in Brünisried FR (the area) in GWR its written as Ägerte
Fred
Am 06.11.2012 21:47, schrieb Simon Poole:
I've set up an experimental street name comparison service at http://qa.poole.ch/ch-roads/ , this generates on a per community base a list of names and compares them to the list available generated from GWR data. More information can be found here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_-_GWR_Street_and_Place_Names_Comparis...
As can be seen from the list we have a large number of locations where we have surveyed none or only a very small number of the street names. I hope that providing this service will help motivate the community to improve the situation.
Simon
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