Hello,
We have recently created a small Geneva based NGO called European Water Project. Our project is 100% collaborative and 100% open data with the goal of helping empower individuals to reduce single use waste in their lives. We have written a set of instructions for adding new water fountains to OSM and adding photos to existing water fountains in OSM : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments from this group on how to improve these instructions which have been written for a diverse audience - especially before we start translating them in to other languages. You can either respond to this chain or email me directly at stuart@europeanwaterproject.org
Our NGO is developing a Progressive Web Application to allow individuals to find nearby locations where they can refill their sustainable water bottle for free anywhere in Europe. The first phase is focused on water fountains but we hope to help collaboratively create a network of cafes and restaurants which are willing to allow individuals to fill up their water bottle for free and avoid single use waste.
The beta version of our PWA application 100% powered by OSM and wikidata is available at https://europeanwaterproject.org
Best regards,
Stuart Rapoport
Salut
hmmm....
Copyright 2020 European Water Project
Copyright? Really...?
Must be a misunderstanding ;-)
cheeers, h.
Am 14.12.2019 um 09:24 schrieb European Water Project:
Hello,
We have recently created a small Geneva based NGO called European Water Project. Our project is 100% collaborative and 100% open data with the goal of helping empower individuals to reduce single use waste in their lives. We have written a set of instructions for adding new water fountains to OSM and adding photos to existing water fountains in OSM : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments from this group on how to improve these instructions which have been written for a diverse audience - especially before we start translating them in to other languages. You can either respond to this chain or email me directly at stuart@europeanwaterproject.org mailto:stuart@europeanwaterproject.org
Our NGO is developing a Progressive Web Application to allow individuals to find nearby locations where they can refill their sustainable water bottle for free anywhere in Europe. The first phase is focused on water fountains but we hope to help collaboratively create a network of cafes and restaurants which are willing to allow individuals to fill up their water bottle for free and avoid single use waste.
The beta version of our PWA application 100% powered by OSM and wikidata is available at https://europeanwaterproject.org
Best regards,
Stuart Rapoport
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Andreas,
What a warm response to my first message to the open street map community.
Please do let us know if you have any ideas of how the instruction page hosted on wikimedia can be improved for better clarity.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 15:12, Andreas Bürki abuerki@anidor.com wrote:
Salut
hmmm....
Copyright 2020 European Water Project
Copyright? Really...?
Must be a misunderstanding ;-)
cheeers, h.
Am 14.12.2019 um 09:24 schrieb European Water Project:
Hello,
We have recently created a small Geneva based NGO called European Water Project. Our project is 100% collaborative and 100% open data with the goal of helping empower individuals to reduce single use waste in their lives. We have written a set of instructions for adding new water fountains to OSM and adding photos to existing water fountains in OSM :
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments from this group on how to improve these instructions which have been written for a diverse audience - especially before we start translating them in to other languages. You can either respond to this chain or email me directly at stuart@europeanwaterproject.org mailto:stuart@europeanwaterproject.org
Our NGO is developing a Progressive Web Application to allow individuals to find nearby locations where they can refill their sustainable water bottle for free anywhere in Europe. The first phase is focused on water fountains but we hope to help collaboratively create a network of cafes and restaurants which are willing to allow individuals to fill up their water bottle for free and avoid single use waste.
The beta version of our PWA application 100% powered by OSM and wikidata is available at https://europeanwaterproject.org
Best regards,
Stuart Rapoport
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
--
Andreas Bürki
abuerki@anidor.com S/MIME certificate - SHA-256 fingerprint:
8A:1A:C2:93:10:4B:CE:91:2C:80:79:44:24:1D:38:CA:EE:0E:89:C9:A5:A4:A0:03:FF:5A:FB:D1:15:18:B5:45 GnuPG - GPG fingerprint: 5DA7 5F48 25BD D2D7 E488 05DF 5A99 A321 7E42 0227
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Stuart
From a content pov looks good with just a few issues:
- if you include a link to google maps to get your current coordinates, you should point out that google maps is is not a legit source for deriving information for OpenStreetMap (just getting your current position is fine), and further extracting information from google maps and storing it elsewhere is against the their ToU (that's up to google to police though).
- I might had included a link in the first set of instructions to the adding a link to an image part for people that have already added an image to wikimedia commons or found an existing one there.
- nitpick: it is always OpenStreetMap without spaces.
Simon
Am 14.12.2019 um 09:24 schrieb European Water Project:
Hello,
We have recently created a small Geneva based NGO called European Water Project. Our project is 100% collaborative and 100% open data with the goal of helping empower individuals to reduce single use waste in their lives. We have written a set of instructions for adding new water fountains to OSM and adding photos to existing water fountains in OSM : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments from this group on how to improve these instructions which have been written for a diverse audience - especially before we start translating them in to other languages. You can either respond to this chain or email me directly at stuart@europeanwaterproject.org mailto:stuart@europeanwaterproject.org
Our NGO is developing a Progressive Web Application to allow individuals to find nearby locations where they can refill their sustainable water bottle for free anywhere in Europe. The first phase is focused on water fountains but we hope to help collaboratively create a network of cafes and restaurants which are willing to allow individuals to fill up their water bottle for free and avoid single use waste.
The beta version of our PWA application 100% powered by OSM and wikidata is available at https://europeanwaterproject.org
Best regards,
Stuart Rapoport
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hello Simon,
1. I added language telling people not to copy fountain information from Google to OpenStreetMap 2. I reordered the instructions as per your suggestion. 3. I changed the 25 references from Open Street Map to OpenStreetMap 4. Based on a suggestion we just received, we are adding a section with instructions on how to edit a fountain so that people can add a name to a fountain or remove the amenity drinking water for a fountain which is signaled as non potable. Here in France, the mayors are so scared of getting sued that most fountains with perfectly good drinking water - even in the mountains- are labelled as "non-potable".
Thanks for your input,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 13:12, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:
Hi Stuart
From a content pov looks good with just a few issues:
- if you include a link to google maps to get your current coordinates,
you should point out that google maps is is not a legit source for deriving information for OpenStreetMap (just getting your current position is fine), and further extracting information from google maps and storing it elsewhere is against the their ToU (that's up to google to police though).
- I might had included a link in the first set of instructions to the
adding a link to an image part for people that have already added an image to wikimedia commons or found an existing one there.
- nitpick: it is always OpenStreetMap without spaces.
Simon Am 14.12.2019 um 09:24 schrieb European Water Project:
Hello,
We have recently created a small Geneva based NGO called European Water Project. Our project is 100% collaborative and 100% open data with the goal of helping empower individuals to reduce single use waste in their lives. We have written a set of instructions for adding new water fountains to OSM and adding photos to existing water fountains in OSM : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project
I would greatly appreciate constructive comments from this group on how to improve these instructions which have been written for a diverse audience - especially before we start translating them in to other languages. You can either respond to this chain or email me directly at stuart@europeanwaterproject.org
Our NGO is developing a Progressive Web Application to allow individuals to find nearby locations where they can refill their sustainable water bottle for free anywhere in Europe. The first phase is focused on water fountains but we hope to help collaboratively create a network of cafes and restaurants which are willing to allow individuals to fill up their water bottle for free and avoid single use waste.
The beta version of our PWA application 100% powered by OSM and wikidata is available at https://europeanwaterproject.org
Best regards,
Stuart Rapoport
talk-ch mailing listtalk-ch@openstreetmap.chhttp://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddrinking_water
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Markus and Simon,
We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further.
If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project < europeanwaterproject@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Stuart!
Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change
name = "the name you choose"
to
name = "name of the fountain" (if any)
or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no name, noname=yes can be added.)
Best regards
Markus
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Markus and Simon,
We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further.
If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Dear Markus,
I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive.
Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ?
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change
name = "the name you choose"
to
name = "name of the fountain" (if any)
or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no name, noname=yes can be added.)
Best regards
Markus
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Markus and Simon,
We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have
reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further.
If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly
appreciate it.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproject@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking
fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain
that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ?
Adding descriptive names would violate OSM's core principle of verifiability [1] [2] and would make it impossible to distinguish from real names.
[1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
Best regards
Markus
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:09, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Markus,
I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive.
Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ?
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change
name = "the name you choose"
to
name = "name of the fountain" (if any)
or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no name, noname=yes can be added.)
Best regards
Markus
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Markus and Simon,
We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further.
If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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Dear Markus,
I am not sure what a "real" name means when it comes to a water fountain - unless it happens to be artistic. Most fountain names I have seen (other than artistic ones) seem to have names linked to a nearby square, street or other landmark. The example above of "St Restitut Church fountain" was for a fountain located on the side of the lone Church in St. Restitut, France.
It seems to me that giving a concise descriptive name in the local language linked to a specific landmark follows the verifiability principal if other mappers (especially those on the ground and local) would always say the name given is fair and true. This being said, I will of course refrain from taking this liberty unless it is sanctioned as acceptable.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 21:11, Markus selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some
circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ?
Adding descriptive names would violate OSM's core principle of verifiability [1] [2] and would make it impossible to distinguish from real names.
Best regards
Markus
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:09, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Dear Markus,
I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is
the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive.
Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some
circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ?
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Stuart!
Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also
change
name = "the name you choose"
to
name = "name of the fountain" (if any)
or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no name, noname=yes can be added.)
Best regards
Markus
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project europeanwaterproject@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Markus and Simon,
We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have
reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further.
If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would
greatly appreciate it.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproject@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Markus,
Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking
fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes.
And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain
that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no.
Thank you for your comments,
Stuart
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, selfishseahorse@gmail.com
wrote:
Hi Stuart!
On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is
redundant
as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1]
[1]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddrinking_water
By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add drinking_water=yes/no.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
Regards
Markus _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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Hi Stuart
That name topic is a bit tricky for fountains in my opinion. Let's approach this from another side: We are a geographic database, that means we don't need to name objects with their location (like St Restitut Church Bench for a bench that is beside that church, to make an extreme example) because that information is available from the coordinate, by looking at landmark objects close by.
But sometimes names really are descriptive. And they are still accepted in the name tag. For example railway stations. They just get the name of the town usually, but we still add a name tag. That one is easy, because there are nice big signs there with the name on it, and oddities are easy to catch for a mapper, for example if a station serves two towns and gets a double name. So no one questions that railway stations get name tags. But fountains? If there is some inscription with the name on it, go ahead, it has a name. But what if there is no plate or inscription?
For a fountain, if the name is its location, I would only fill the name tag if I was confident that it is its proper name. That people would still call it by that name if it was relocated.
I hope that helps a bit to understand the name tag in OSM
best regards Michael
On 21/12/2019 22:02, European Water Project wrote:
Dear Markus,
I am not sure what a "real" name means when it comes to a water fountain
- unless it happens to be artistic. Most fountain names I have seen
(other than artistic ones) seem to have names linked to a nearby square, street or other landmark. The example above of "St Restitut Church fountain" was for a fountain located on the side of the lone Church in St. Restitut, France.
It seems to me that giving a concise descriptive name in the local language linked to a specific landmark follows the verifiability principal if other mappers (especially those on the ground and local) would always say the name given is fair and true. This being said, I will of course refrain from taking this liberty unless it is sanctioned as acceptable.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 21:11, Markus <selfishseahorse@gmail.com mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? Adding descriptive names would violate OSM's core principle of verifiability [1] [2] and would make it impossible to distinguish from real names. [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name Best regards Markus On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:09, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Dear Markus, > > I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive. > > Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Stuart! >> >> Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change >> >> name = "the name you choose" >> >> to >> >> name = "name of the fountain" (if any) >> >> or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a >> description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main >> square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. >> (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no >> name, noname=yes can be added.) >> >> Best regards >> >> Markus >> >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project >> <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Markus and Simon, >> > >> > We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further. >> > >> > If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Markus, >> >> >> >> Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes. >> >> >> >> And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your comments, >> >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Stuart! >> >>> >> >>> On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yes to a >> >>> drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant >> >>> as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes. [1] >> >>> >> >>> [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddrinking_water >> >>> >> >>> By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, >> >>> i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water >> >>> too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add >> >>> drinking_water=yes/no. >> >>> >> >>> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain >> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> Markus
Dear Michael, Dear Markus,
I appreciate your emails explaining the purpose of the name tag and some of the issues with descriptive names. I am new to OpenStreetMap and the learning is important.
European Water Project has the goal to contribute to the creation of a robust well maintained database of drinking quality water fountains (and later cafes/restaurants) where people can fill up their sustainable water bottle free and avoid creating single use waste. Luckily all this can be done without the fountain having a name :) We will promote OSM best practices for name attributions.
From a philosophical point of view .... I might put fountains into two
categories. The vast majority, which are just objects or fixtures of the city like a metal fountain in an airport and those that are deserving of a Proper Name. For example, the fountains which played a central role in sustaining daily life and must have had a name before running water came to Europe in the early 1900s.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 17:26 michael spreng, mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net wrote:
Hi Stuart
That name topic is a bit tricky for fountains in my opinion. Let's approach this from another side: We are a geographic database, that means we don't need to name objects with their location (like St Restitut Church Bench for a bench that is beside that church, to make an extreme example) because that information is available from the coordinate, by looking at landmark objects close by.
But sometimes names really are descriptive. And they are still accepted in the name tag. For example railway stations. They just get the name of the town usually, but we still add a name tag. That one is easy, because there are nice big signs there with the name on it, and oddities are easy to catch for a mapper, for example if a station serves two towns and gets a double name. So no one questions that railway stations get name tags. But fountains? If there is some inscription with the name on it, go ahead, it has a name. But what if there is no plate or inscription?
For a fountain, if the name is its location, I would only fill the name tag if I was confident that it is its proper name. That people would still call it by that name if it was relocated.
I hope that helps a bit to understand the name tag in OSM
best regards Michael
On 21/12/2019 22:02, European Water Project wrote:
Dear Markus,
I am not sure what a "real" name means when it comes to a water fountain
- unless it happens to be artistic. Most fountain names I have seen
(other than artistic ones) seem to have names linked to a nearby square, street or other landmark. The example above of "St Restitut Church fountain" was for a fountain located on the side of the lone Church in St. Restitut, France.
It seems to me that giving a concise descriptive name in the local language linked to a specific landmark follows the verifiability principal if other mappers (especially those on the ground and local) would always say the name given is fair and true. This being said, I will of course refrain from taking this liberty unless it is sanctioned as acceptable.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 21:11, Markus <selfishseahorse@gmail.com mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? Adding descriptive names would violate OSM's core principle of verifiability [1] [2] and would make it impossible to distinguishfrom
real names. [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name Best regards Markus On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:09, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Dear Markus, > > I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive. > > Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Stuart! >> >> Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change >> >> name = "the name you choose" >> >> to >> >> name = "name of the fountain" (if any) >> >> or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to add a >> description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on the main >> square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it has one. >> (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no >> name, noname=yes can be added.) >> >> Best regards >> >> Markus >> >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project >> <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Markus and Simon, >> > >> > We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further. >> > >> > If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Markus, >> >> >> >> Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes. >> >> >> >> And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your comments, >> >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Stuart! >> >>> >> >>> On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yesto a
>> >>> drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant >> >>> as amenity=drinking_water already implies drinking_water=yes.[1]
>> >>> >> >>> [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddrinking_water >> >>> >> >>> By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, >> >>> i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water >> >>> too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add >> >>> drinking_water=yes/no. >> >>> >> >>> [2]https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
>> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> Markus
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
We have added instructions in French for adding a fountain in OpenStreetMap and instructions for adding a photo of a fountain in Wikimedia Commons. Again, comments welcome !
Happy holidays to all !
best regards,
Stuart https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project/...
On Sun, 22 Dec 2019 at 12:20, European Water Project < europeanwaterproject@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Michael, Dear Markus,
I appreciate your emails explaining the purpose of the name tag and some of the issues with descriptive names. I am new to OpenStreetMap and the learning is important.
European Water Project has the goal to contribute to the creation of a robust well maintained database of drinking quality water fountains (and later cafes/restaurants) where people can fill up their sustainable water bottle free and avoid creating single use waste. Luckily all this can be done without the fountain having a name :) We will promote OSM best practices for name attributions.
From a philosophical point of view .... I might put fountains into two categories. The vast majority, which are just objects or fixtures of the city like a metal fountain in an airport and those that are deserving of a Proper Name. For example, the fountains which played a central role in sustaining daily life and must have had a name before running water came to Europe in the early 1900s.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 17:26 michael spreng, < mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net> wrote:
Hi Stuart
That name topic is a bit tricky for fountains in my opinion. Let's approach this from another side: We are a geographic database, that means we don't need to name objects with their location (like St Restitut Church Bench for a bench that is beside that church, to make an extreme example) because that information is available from the coordinate, by looking at landmark objects close by.
But sometimes names really are descriptive. And they are still accepted in the name tag. For example railway stations. They just get the name of the town usually, but we still add a name tag. That one is easy, because there are nice big signs there with the name on it, and oddities are easy to catch for a mapper, for example if a station serves two towns and gets a double name. So no one questions that railway stations get name tags. But fountains? If there is some inscription with the name on it, go ahead, it has a name. But what if there is no plate or inscription?
For a fountain, if the name is its location, I would only fill the name tag if I was confident that it is its proper name. That people would still call it by that name if it was relocated.
I hope that helps a bit to understand the name tag in OSM
best regards Michael
On 21/12/2019 22:02, European Water Project wrote:
Dear Markus,
I am not sure what a "real" name means when it comes to a water fountain
- unless it happens to be artistic. Most fountain names I have seen
(other than artistic ones) seem to have names linked to a nearby square, street or other landmark. The example above of "St Restitut Church fountain" was for a fountain located on the side of the lone Church in St. Restitut, France.
It seems to me that giving a concise descriptive name in the local language linked to a specific landmark follows the verifiability principal if other mappers (especially those on the ground and local) would always say the name given is fair and true. This being said, I will of course refrain from taking this liberty unless it is sanctioned as acceptable.
Best regards,
Stuart
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 21:11, Markus <selfishseahorse@gmail.com mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? Adding descriptive names would violate OSM's core principle of verifiability [1] [2] and would make it impossible to distinguishfrom
real names. [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability [2]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name Best regards Markus On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 20:09, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Dear Markus, > > I agree it is clearer and will make that amendment and make sure it is the same in the French version which we will publish in the next days. No one should feel the need to be inventive. > > Is giving a descriptive name really not best practice in some circumstances? For example if I invent a name for a fountain "St Restitut Church fountain", is this incorrect ? > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, 13:18 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi Stuart! >> >> Thanks for adding amenity=fountain to the documentation. I would also change >> >> name = "the name you choose" >> >> to >> >> name = "name of the fountain" (if any) >> >> or similar, because "the name you choose" may lead people to adda
>> description (e.g. "Drinking fountain" or "Old fountain on themain
>> square in Watertown") instead of the fountain name, if it hasone.
>> (For descriptions, the key description is used. If the fountain has no >> name, noname=yes can be added.) >> >> Best regards >> >> Markus >> >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 18:07, European Water Project >> <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Markus and Simon, >> > >> > We have had many non-technical people read the instructions and have reworked them significantly to make them more legible to individuals who have no knowledge of OSM or Wikimedia Commons. I am sure we will have to continue to improve them further. >> > >> > If either of you have the energy to review them again, I would greatly appreciate it. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 at 22:31, European Water Project <europeanwaterproject@gmail.com <mailto:europeanwaterproject@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello Markus, >> >> >> >> Based on your suggestion, we will suggest when adding a drinking fountains to for them to be tagged either 1) as amenity = drinking_water or 2 ) with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = yes. >> >> >> >> And for section 3) we will suggest that for editing a water fountain that does not seem to have drinking quality water that the fountain should be designated with two tags a) amenity = fountain and b) drinking_water = no. >> >> >> >> Thank you for your comments, >> >> >> >> Stuart >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, 15 Dec 2019, 22:05 Markus, <selfishseahorse@gmail.com <mailto:selfishseahorse@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi Stuart! >> >>> >> >>> On the Wikimedia page you suggest adding drinking_water=yesto a
>> >>> drinking fountain (amenity=drinking_water). However, this is redundant >> >>> as amenity=drinking_water already impliesdrinking_water=yes. [1]
>> >>> >> >>> [1]: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Ddrinking_water >> >>> >> >>> By the way, you may also be interested in mapping amenity=fountain, >> >>> i.e. decorative fountains, [2] as they often provide drinkable water >> >>> too. Note that for amenity=fountain it makes sense to add >> >>> drinking_water=yes/no. >> >>> >> >>> [2]https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dfountain
>> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> Markus
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
-
Andreas Bürki -
European Water Project -
Markus -
michael spreng -
Simon Poole