The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network (parks.swiss) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael
Salut
* Why should OSM follow this request of a national marketing organization? What is the benefit for OSM?
* Is parks.swiss using OSM? - I see only swisstopo and a picture of a google style map.
* Is double naming - German-Rumantsch - not possible? If yes, what would OSM win?
cheeers, h.
Am 08.08.2017 um 21:06 schrieb michael spreng:
The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network ) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
I think under "name" should be the name as it is on an entrance sign. As it is on the ground.
Gruss Ueli
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-------- Original-Nachricht -------- An 8. Aug. 2017, 21:23, Andreas Bürki schrieb:
Salut
- Why should OSM follow this request of a national marketing
organization? What is the benefit for OSM?
- Is parks.swiss using OSM? - I see only swisstopo and a picture of a
google style map.
- Is double naming - German-Rumantsch - not possible? If yes, what would
OSM win?
cheeers, h.
Am 08.08.2017 um 21:06 schrieb michael spreng:
The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network ) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
--
Andreas Bürki
abuerki@anidor.com S/MIME certificate - SHA-256 fingerprint: 8A:1A:C2:93:10:4B:CE:91:2C:80:79:44:24:1D:38:CA:EE:0E:89:C9:A5:A4:A0:03:FF:5A:FB:D1:15:18:B5:45 GnuPG - GPG fingerprint: 5DA7 5F48 25BD D2D7 E488 05DF 5A99 A321 7E42 0227
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one to use in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because that one is rendered by the osm.org renderer.
A little image search seems to tell us what the ground truth is on the signs:
https://www.google.ch/search?hl=fr-CH&biw=360&bih=440&tbm=isch&a...
Yves
Le 8 août 2017 21:41:17 GMT+02:00, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one to use in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because that one is rendered by the osm.org renderer. _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi all,
If the request came from an official side (e.g. http://www.nationalpark.ch/de/about/kontakt/) then I would honor it. But in this case, I would kindly redirect them to the respective "owners" and inform them about our policy to map what's on the ground...
Rgds Roman
Quoting Yves yvecai@gmail.com:
A little image search seems to tell us what the ground truth is on the signs:
https://www.google.ch/search?hl=fr-CH&biw=360&bih=440&tbm=isch&a...
Yves
Le 8 août 2017 21:41:17 GMT+02:00, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one to use in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because that one is rendered by the osm.org renderer. _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Would you honour a request from an official side to remove data from OSM ? (e.g. when Garmish-Partenkirche asks to remove cave entrances) Would you honour a request from an official side to alter the boundary of a country ? ...
IMHO We do not have to honour requests from any party, we should map what is on the ground. If the party wants a map with a particular feature, it's up to them to make that map, we just provide the data
m.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Roman Fischer romanf@trash.net wrote:
Hi all,
If the request came from an official side (e.g. http://www.nationalpark.ch/de/about/kontakt/) then I would honor it. But in this case, I would kindly redirect them to the respective "owners" and inform them about our policy to map what's on the ground...
Rgds Roman
Quoting Yves yvecai@gmail.com:
A little image search seems to tell us what the ground truth is on the signs:
https://www.google.ch/search?hl=fr-CH&biw=360&bih=440&tbm=isch&a...
Yves
Le 8 août 2017 21:41:17 GMT+02:00, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one to use in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because that one is rendered by the osm.org renderer. _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Dear Marc,
You are of course right we have no obligation to honor requests. But we are free to consider them and then decide however we want. At least they asked nicely and didn't just change the map. :)
And yes, maybe my wording was not very precices. I was only talking about this specific request and not in general. I should have written "If this request came from the Verwaltung des Schweizerischen Nationalparks...". I don't know anything about caves in Garmisch or country borders. :)
-Roman
Quoting Marc Gemis marc.gemis@gmail.com:
Would you honour a request from an official side to remove data from OSM ? (e.g. when Garmish-Partenkirche asks to remove cave entrances) Would you honour a request from an official side to alter the boundary of a country ? ...
IMHO We do not have to honour requests from any party, we should map what is on the ground. If the party wants a map with a particular feature, it's up to them to make that map, we just provide the data
m.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Roman Fischer romanf@trash.net wrote:
Hi all,
If the request came from an official side (e.g. http://www.nationalpark.ch/de/about/kontakt/) then I would honor it. But in this case, I would kindly redirect them to the respective "owners" and inform them about our policy to map what's on the ground...
Rgds Roman
Quoting Yves yvecai@gmail.com:
A little image search seems to tell us what the ground truth is on the signs:
https://www.google.ch/search?hl=fr-CH&biw=360&bih=440&tbm=isch&a...
Yves
Le 8 août 2017 21:41:17 GMT+02:00, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for each individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one to use in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because that one is rendered by the osm.org renderer. _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
The easy rule is to put what's on the signs at the parc entrances under the name= tag. Has somebody a first hand insight of those signs? Yves
Le 9 août 2017 08:13:27 GMT+02:00, Roman Fischer romanf@trash.net a écrit :
Dear Marc,
You are of course right we have no obligation to honor requests. But we are free to consider them and then decide however we want. At least
they asked nicely and didn't just change the map. :)
And yes, maybe my wording was not very precices. I was only talking about this specific request and not in general. I should have written "If this request came from the Verwaltung des Schweizerischen Nationalparks...". I don't know anything about caves in Garmisch or country borders. :)
-Roman
Quoting Marc Gemis marc.gemis@gmail.com:
Would you honour a request from an official side to remove data from OSM ? (e.g. when Garmish-Partenkirche asks to remove cave entrances) Would you honour a request from an official side to alter the
boundary
of a country ? ...
IMHO We do not have to honour requests from any party, we should map what is on the ground. If the party wants a map with a particular feature, it's up to them
to
make that map, we just provide the data
m.
On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 7:04 AM, Roman Fischer romanf@trash.net
wrote:
Hi all,
If the request came from an official side (e.g. http://www.nationalpark.ch/de/about/kontakt/) then I would honor it.
But in
this case, I would kindly redirect them to the respective "owners"
and
inform them about our policy to map what's on the ground...
Rgds Roman
Quoting Yves yvecai@gmail.com:
A little image search seems to tell us what the ground truth is on
the
signs:
https://www.google.ch/search?hl=fr-CH&biw=360&bih=440&tbm=isch&a...
Yves
Le 8 août 2017 21:41:17 GMT+02:00, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
On 08/08/17 21:29, amilopowers@u-cloud.ch wrote:
Hello
Just add all the names like suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features for
each
individual language.
Of course all languages are mapped. This is only about which one
to use
in the generic name tag, which is a bit more prominent because
that one
is rendered by the osm.org renderer. _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
On 09/08/17 07:04, Roman Fischer wrote:
Hi all,
If the request came from an official side (e.g. http://www.nationalpark.ch/de/about/kontakt/) then I would honor it. But in this case, I would kindly redirect them to the respective "owners" and inform them about our policy to map what's on the ground...
This request comes indeed from the national park themself. My contact from parks.swiss just relayed the message.
Hi
Sorry for the long delay. I had another exchange of mails. In the discussion so far concerns were raised that this does not come from the official side, and that there are signs at the park entrance that use the Rumantsch name. I have clarified both points, here is the answer (in German):
Vor Ort und auf seinem Logo kommuniziert der Schweizerische Nationalpark mit dem romanischen Namen "Parc Naziunal Svizzer" - dies als Tribut für die Lage in der rätoromanischen Schweiz. Für die gesamtschweizerische Kommunikation verwendet und wünscht der Park jedoch den Begriff "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" - dies aus dem einfachen Grund, dass der Name verständlicher und bekannter ist.
Die Kommunikation von "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" ist ausdrücklicher Wunsch von Hans Lozza, Leiter Kommunikation des Schweizerischen Nationalparks. Ich bin zwar vom Dachverband der Schweizer Pärke, habe aber Arbeitsort beim Schweizerischen Nationalpark und stehe in direktem Kontakt mit Hans Lozza.
Wenn die Namensanpassung von der Community nicht gewünscht ist, können Sie den romanischen Namen natürlich stehen lassen. Konsequenter und konsistenter wäre, "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" zu verwenden.
For me this sounds reasonable. It's the expressed wish officially from the Park administration. The violation of our "on the ground" rule is in my opinion acceptable, because the name is spelled in Rumantsch as a tribute, and it says exactly the same just in another language. There should be no confusion in this specific case for map users, as there is only one National park in Switzerland, it is well known and both names are quite similar.
Michael
On 08/08/17 21:06, michael spreng wrote:
The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network (parks.swiss) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Merci Michael for clarifying the issue. Under these circumstances I can fully support the change to the german name.
Thx Roman
Quoting michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net:
Hi
Sorry for the long delay. I had another exchange of mails. In the discussion so far concerns were raised that this does not come from the official side, and that there are signs at the park entrance that use the Rumantsch name. I have clarified both points, here is the answer (in German):
Vor Ort und auf seinem Logo kommuniziert der Schweizerische Nationalpark mit dem romanischen Namen "Parc Naziunal Svizzer" - dies als Tribut für die Lage in der rätoromanischen Schweiz. Für die gesamtschweizerische Kommunikation verwendet und wünscht der Park jedoch den Begriff "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" - dies aus dem einfachen Grund, dass der Name verständlicher und bekannter ist.
Die Kommunikation von "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" ist ausdrücklicher Wunsch von Hans Lozza, Leiter Kommunikation des Schweizerischen Nationalparks. Ich bin zwar vom Dachverband der Schweizer Pärke, habe aber Arbeitsort beim Schweizerischen Nationalpark und stehe in direktem Kontakt mit Hans Lozza.
Wenn die Namensanpassung von der Community nicht gewünscht ist, können Sie den romanischen Namen natürlich stehen lassen. Konsequenter und konsistenter wäre, "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" zu verwenden.
For me this sounds reasonable. It's the expressed wish officially from the Park administration. The violation of our "on the ground" rule is in my opinion acceptable, because the name is spelled in Rumantsch as a tribute, and it says exactly the same just in another language. There should be no confusion in this specific case for map users, as there is only one National park in Switzerland, it is well known and both names are quite similar.
Michael
On 08/08/17 21:06, michael spreng wrote:
The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network (parks.swiss) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi
I think it makes much sense to use the local name as the default name, and we shouldn't change that practice just because any authority isn't happy with it. However, because the national park is located in a region with a non-negligible German-speaking minority (from 23% in Val Mustair up to 39% in Scuol [^1]), defaulting to 'Parc Naziunal Svizzer/Schweizerischer Nationalpark' would be reasonable, too.
[^1]: Census 2010, quoted on Wikipedia
On 18 October 2017 at 14:58, michael spreng mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net wrote:
Hi
Sorry for the long delay. I had another exchange of mails. In the discussion so far concerns were raised that this does not come from the official side, and that there are signs at the park entrance that use the Rumantsch name. I have clarified both points, here is the answer (in German):
Vor Ort und auf seinem Logo kommuniziert der Schweizerische Nationalpark mit dem romanischen Namen "Parc Naziunal Svizzer" - dies als Tribut für die Lage in der rätoromanischen Schweiz. Für die gesamtschweizerische Kommunikation verwendet und wünscht der Park jedoch den Begriff "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" - dies aus dem einfachen Grund, dass der Name verständlicher und bekannter ist.
Die Kommunikation von "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" ist ausdrücklicher Wunsch von Hans Lozza, Leiter Kommunikation des Schweizerischen Nationalparks. Ich bin zwar vom Dachverband der Schweizer Pärke, habe aber Arbeitsort beim Schweizerischen Nationalpark und stehe in direktem Kontakt mit Hans Lozza.
Wenn die Namensanpassung von der Community nicht gewünscht ist, können Sie den romanischen Namen natürlich stehen lassen. Konsequenter und konsistenter wäre, "Schweizerischer Nationalpark" zu verwenden.
For me this sounds reasonable. It's the expressed wish officially from the Park administration. The violation of our "on the ground" rule is in my opinion acceptable, because the name is spelled in Rumantsch as a tribute, and it says exactly the same just in another language. There should be no confusion in this specific case for map users, as there is only one National park in Switzerland, it is well known and both names are quite similar.
Michael
On 08/08/17 21:06, michael spreng wrote:
The Swiss National Park would like to have the German name as the main name tag in OSM. I'd like to get some opinions on this.
The Swiss Parks Network (parks.swiss) has provided me with updates of the outlines of the national and regional parks in Switzerland, and I have updated them in OSM. Via this contact I was asked to change the name of the Swiss National Park from Parc Naziunal Svizzer to Schweizerischer Nationalpark. They would like to see that name on the OSM standard map. They say the park is better identified (more widely known) with the German name. I'm not sure about this. Should we accept their wish or should we insist on the naming it in Rumantsch as it is in that language region?
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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amilopowers＠u-cloud.ch -
Andreas Bürki -
Marc Gemis -
michael spreng -
Roman Fischer -
Selfish Seahorse -
Yves