Hi all,
By coincidence I bumped into a user which has sourced data from map.geo.admin.ch and used it to update OSM. As far as I am aware SwissTopo data is not OpenData and under copyright an can therefore not be used
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/stijnvermeeren
This person only has a few changesets, and most of them state map.geo.admin.ch as source.
Should this data be reverted?
Cheers, dikkeknodel
Yes this seems to be stuff that has to be removed.
Simon
Am 15.05.2018 um 14:16 schrieb _ dikkeknodel:
Hi all,
By coincidence I bumped into a user which has sourced data from map.geo.admin.ch and used it to update OSM. As far as I am aware SwissTopo data is not OpenData and under copyright an can therefore not be used
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/stijnvermeeren
This person only has a few changesets, and most of them state map.geo.admin.ch as source.
Should this data be reverted?
Cheers,
dikkeknodel
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Mail sent to the DWG as this should likely be redacted. not just reverted.
Simon
Am 15.05.2018 um 14:43 schrieb Simon Poole:
Yes this seems to be stuff that has to be removed.
Simon
Am 15.05.2018 um 14:16 schrieb _ dikkeknodel:
Hi all,
By coincidence I bumped into a user which has sourced data from map.geo.admin.ch and used it to update OSM. As far as I am aware SwissTopo data is not OpenData and under copyright an can therefore not be used
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/stijnvermeeren
This person only has a few changesets, and most of them state map.geo.admin.ch as source.
Should this data be reverted?
Cheers,
dikkeknodel
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 14:51 schrieben Sie:
Mail sent to the DWG as this should likely be redacted. not just reverted.
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Thanks for explanation.
Hikerus
Hi Hikerus
On 15.05.2018 15:09, Hikerus wrote:
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Well, by editing OSM with whatever they've learned from looking at the map(s) at map.geo.admin.ch.
Regards, Raphael
Guten Tag, Raphael Das Gupta,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 15:41 schrieben Sie:
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Well, by editing OSM with whatever they've learned from looking at the map(s) at map.geo.admin.ch.
Hmm - I don't really understand. I am standing here on a street and I see that a house in front of me isn't on the OSM map.
If I see that this house on map.geo.admin.ch I am not allowed to add it - I only allowed to put it not to have a look on geo.admin.ch at before?
Well - sounds a little strange to me.
Hikerus
Am 15.05.2018 um 16:01 schrieb Hikerus:
Guten Tag, Raphael Das Gupta,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 15:41 schrieben Sie:
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Well, by editing OSM with whatever they've learned from looking at the map(s) at map.geo.admin.ch.
Hmm - I don't really understand. I am standing here on a street and I see that a house in front of me isn't on the OSM map.
If I see that this house on map.geo.admin.ch I am not allowed to add it - I only allowed to put it not to have a look on geo.admin.ch at before?
Well - sounds a little strange to me.
In this case the contributor was directly using the position information from the copyrighted swisstopo maps to determine where to put the peaks, which is not different than any other copying. See https://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome While, naturally, the fact that something exists is not protected, one to one copying from a copyrighted source to add the data to OSM is.
Simon
Hikerus
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Guten Tag, Simon Poole,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 16:14 schrieben Sie:
Am 15.05.2018 um 16:01 schrieb Hikerus:
Guten Tag, Raphael Das Gupta,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 15:41 schrieben Sie:
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Well, by editing OSM with whatever they've learned from looking at the map(s) at map.geo.admin.ch.
Hmm - I don't really understand. I am standing here on a street and I see that a house in front of me isn't on the OSM map.
If I see that this house on map.geo.admin.ch I am not allowed to add it - I only allowed to put it not to have a look on geo.admin.ch at before?
Well - sounds a little strange to me.
In this case the contributor was directly using the position information from the copyrighted swisstopo maps to determine where to put the peaks, which is not different than any other copying. See https://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome While, naturally, the fact that something exists is not protected, one to one copying from a copyrighted source to add the data to OSM is.
So its a little bit more clear: Everything you see (eg. house, street, river) you can add - but additional data from an other source (eg. height) isn't allowed.
Ok. But there are still difficulties: My village had the wrong postal code in OSM map - so I corrected it. But the copyright of postal codes is by Swiss Post. So I did it wrong - I have to change back to the wrong one?
Hikerus
Hallo Hikarus
On 15.05.2018 16:20, Hikerus wrote:
But the copyright of postal codes is by Swiss Post.
Postal codes per se are probably not copyrightable or otherwise legally protectable. A list/database of postal codes might be protectable, though.
So I did it wrong
Not necessarily. What was your source for this change? Your local knowledge (because you're one of the people receiving letters there)? Then everything is fine. (Except that the postal code might not be valid for the whole village, but that is a correctness issue, not a legal one.)
If however your source was a copyrighted or otherwise protected database or list, be it by Swiss Post or anyone else, then the situation would different.
How can you determine what your source was? Well, did you have to actually look up your postal code somewhere, or did you already know it due to regular usage?
I have to change back to the wrong one?
No, that'd be pointless, as potentially illegally copied information would remain in OSM's history. The data working group (DWG) https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Data_Working_Group of the OpenStreetMap Foundation can redact such legally problematic changes if necessary, which will remove the information in question also from the history.
Regards, Raphael
Hallo Hikerus
It’s more like a 1:1 copy from a non allowed source (aka copyrights) VS write public data from public knowledge into OSM.
As an example: The maps from SwissTopo have a copyright, that means that how the map is made, the arrangement and how the data is put on has a copyright which cannot be used within OSM. And the SwissTopo card is not complete public available, so you do not know from where they have their information.
On the other hand, if you go to a public viewable sign, viewable for every person which passes that way, it is public available.
An other example, your ZIP code or the spelling of your village: - Allowed source for the village name is the shield at the entry of the village. - Not allowed is Google Maps / Swiss Topo - Allowed information for the ZIP your knowledge, your last received mail - Maybe allowed is http://opengeodb.giswiki.org/wiki/OpenGeoDB - Not allowed may be other protected “collections” of the data.
This means: As soon as some data is collected and aggregated to generate/create some work (even if the single entry is public available), then the collection may be under copyright which is not usable for OSM. It’s not the single entry, it’s the source of the complete collection where you get your single entry.
Regards, David
From: Hikerus Sent: 15 May 2018 16:20 To: Openstreetmap Schweiz/Suisse/Svizzera/Svizra Subject: Re: [talk-ch] User that used SwissTopo maps to add/update data in OSM
Guten Tag, Simon Poole,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 16:14 schrieben Sie:
Am 15.05.2018 um 16:01 schrieb Hikerus:
Guten Tag, Raphael Das Gupta,
am Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 um 15:41 schrieben Sie:
I don't understand this thread: How could it be possible to "source data from map.geo.admin.ch and use it to update OSM".
Well, by editing OSM with whatever they've learned from looking at the map(s) at map.geo.admin.ch.
Hmm - I don't really understand. I am standing here on a street and I see that a house in front of me isn't on the OSM map.
If I see that this house on map.geo.admin.ch I am not allowed to add it - I only allowed to put it not to have a look on geo.admin.ch at before?
Well - sounds a little strange to me.
In this case the contributor was directly using the position information from the copyrighted swisstopo maps to determine where to put the peaks, which is not different than any other copying. See https://www.openstreetmap.org/welcome While, naturally, the fact that something exists is not protected, one to one copying from a copyrighted source to add the data to OSM is.
So its a little bit more clear: Everything you see (eg. house, street, river) you can add - but additional data from an other source (eg. height) isn't allowed.
Ok. But there are still difficulties: My village had the wrong postal code in OSM map - so I corrected it. But the copyright of postal codes is by Swiss Post. So I did it wrong - I have to change back to the wrong one?
Hikerus
_______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi
An other example, your ZIP code or the spelling of your village:
Allowed source for the village name is the shield at the entry of the village.Not allowed is Google Maps / Swiss TopoAllowed information for the ZIP your knowledge, your last received mailMaybe allowed is http://opengeodb.giswiki.org/wiki/OpenGeoDBNot allowed may be other protected “collections” of the data.
Postal code: "your last received mail" - but not the second-to-last mail?
Village name: So my time table for the postal car is not allowed?
Sounds for me with these example too academic - sorry.
With other words: Is there a *prrecise" description which data is allowed and which is not? The information that "copyrighted data" isn't allowed is far too vague as we see for village name and postal code.
Hikerus
Le 15. 05. 18 à 16:56, Hikerus a écrit :
my time table for the postal car is not allowed?
Sounds for me with these example too academic
a less academic : nothing is allowed exept - local knwonledge (you known a house exist there) - survey (you see a house, the housenumber, the number of level) - gps (you take a gps to get lon&lat to draw the wall of the house) - allowed imagery (you use DigitalGlocal to see a building and draw) - other allowd sources like those on this list https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Datasources
So for the timetable for the bus of your village, - you have the local knownledge of bus you take often (a few per day) - you can survey it : see that a bus stop is there an the name. - you can use a gps to track the route if you want - you can use DIDOK/OpenStransportData.swiss to armchair it. - you can not copy/past operator's map or other "work"
Regards, Marc
Le 15. 05. 18 à 16:20, Hikerus a écrit :
So its a little bit more clear: Everything you see (eg. house, street, river) you can add - but additional data from an other source (eg. height) isn't allowed.
true.
My village had the wrong postal code in OSM map - so I corrected it. But the copyright of postal codes is by Swiss Post. So I did it wrong - I have to change back to the wrong one?
You can always edit the map with source="local knowledge", this mean that if YOU known or if you ask a local inhabitant that known the info, using this knowledge in stead of a survey is allowed. but of course local knowledge only work for a small amount of data. For example, you cannot claim to know the latitude and longitude of an object with 5 digits behind the decimal point. For sure you known the postal code of your house, your street and your village, maybe not for a whole district, Of course not for the whole canton. So if you have fixed the postal_code on the boundary relation of your village, it's fine, no need to revert. if you have put the correct source in the changeset, it's a perfect 5 stars changeset :) if not, you can add a comment on your own previous changeset if you want to inform other people who might ask the question, it is not very serious, the important thing is to take it into account for next time.
Regards, Marc
I’ve contacted the user stijnvermeeren, who got back quickly and was not aware of wrongdoing. I gave him some info on how to proceed in the future, and to not use third party sources, unless there is clearly an approval for use. I read on the wiki page on copyrighthttps://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright that the DWG will handle this further, so I will contact them for clean-up.
Cheers, dikkeknodel
________________________________ Van: talk-ch talk-ch-bounces@openstreetmap.ch namens Simon Poole simon@poole.ch Verzonden: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 2:43:46 PM Aan: talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Onderwerp: Re: [talk-ch] User that used SwissTopo maps to add/update data in OSM
Yes this seems to be stuff that has to be removed.
Simon
Am 15.05.2018 um 14:16 schrieb _ dikkeknodel: Hi all,
By coincidence I bumped into a user which has sourced data from map.geo.admin.ch and used it to update OSM. As far as I am aware SwissTopo data is not OpenData and under copyright an can therefore not be used
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/stijnvermeeren
This person only has a few changesets, and most of them state map.geo.admin.ch as source.
Should this data be reverted?
Cheers, dikkeknodel
_______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.chmailto:talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
On 15.05.2018 15:50, _ dikkeknodel wrote:
I read on the wiki page on copyright https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Copyright that the DWG will handle this further, so I will contact them for clean-up.
Simon has already sent them an email, as he has stated here: http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2018-May/009545.html
On 15.05.2018 14:51, Simon Poole wrote:
Mail sent to the DWG as this should likely be redacted. not just reverted.
Regards, Raphael
Hello,
Le 15. 05. 18 à 15:50, _ dikkeknodel a écrit :
I’ve contacted the user stijnvermeeren, who got back quickly and was not aware of wrongdoing.
Feel free to also ask the user where he find the app "Swiss Peak Integration" to request dev of this app to avoid using invalid source. If not, another user using the same app 'll make the same mistake
Regards, Marc
It’s a prototype program he wrote himself to make it easier to correct peaks. From his websitehttps://stijnvermeeren.be/ I found he’s a mountaineer and data scientist, so that matches with the type of program.
________________________________ Van: talk-ch talk-ch-bounces@openstreetmap.ch namens marc marc marc_marc_irc@hotmail.com Verzonden: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:22:44 PM Aan: talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Onderwerp: Re: [talk-ch] User that used SwissTopo maps to add/update data in OSM
Hello,
Le 15. 05. 18 à 15:50, _ dikkeknodel a écrit :
I’ve contacted the user stijnvermeeren, who got back quickly and was not aware of wrongdoing.
Feel free to also ask the user where he find the app "Swiss Peak Integration" to request dev of this app to avoid using invalid source. If not, another user using the same app 'll make the same mistake
Regards, Marc _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Thanks for the time you take to check this.
Le 15. 05. 18 à 17:12, _ dikkeknodel a écrit :
It’s a prototype program he wrote himself to make it easier to correct peaks. From his website https://stijnvermeeren.be/ I found he’s a mountaineer and data scientist, so that matches with the type of program.
*Van:* talk-ch talk-ch-bounces@openstreetmap.ch namens marc marc marc_marc_irc@hotmail.com *Verzonden:* Tuesday, May 15, 2018 4:22:44 PM *Aan:* talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch *Onderwerp:* Re: [talk-ch] User that used SwissTopo maps to add/update data in OSM Hello,
Le 15. 05. 18 à 15:50, _ dikkeknodel a écrit :
I’ve contacted the user stijnvermeeren, who got back quickly and was not aware of wrongdoing.
Feel free to also ask the user where he find the app "Swiss Peak Integration" to request dev of this app to avoid using invalid source. If not, another user using the same app 'll make the same mistake
Regards, Marc _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
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David Däster -
Hikerus -
marc marc -
Raphael Das Gupta -
Simon Poole