The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at least currently the data is off limits.

Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).

Simon

Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:

Hi everyone

Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?

Best regards

Raphael

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com wrote:

...

(Unten auf Deutsch)

Ciao a tutti

Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM è in Italia. [2]

Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle coordinate?

Cordiali saluti

Raphael

---

Hallo zusammen

Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in Italien. [2]

Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?

Beste Grüsse

Raphael

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:

Hi Simon

Thank you very much for your reply!

The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could redraw the national border with it.

The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find anything obvious.

But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side. The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for the coordinates (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be visible on imagery).

Simon

Best regards

Raphael

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at least currently the data is off limits.

Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).

Simon

Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi everyone

Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?

Best regards

Raphael

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com wrote:

...

(Unten auf Deutsch)

Ciao a tutti

Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM è in Italia. [2]

Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle coordinate?

Cordiali saluti

Raphael

---

Hallo zusammen

Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in Italien. [2]

Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?

Beste Grüsse

Raphael

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:

Hi Simon, hi everyone!

Unfortunately, the link on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on ground level which i haven't noticed.)

I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).

there are larger differences (as i have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences would come from simplification.

It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?

I did.

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

Simon

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi Simon

Thank you very much for your reply!

The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could redraw the national border with it.

The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find anything obvious.

But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side. The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for the coordinates (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be visible on imagery).

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at least currently the data is off limits.

Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).

Simon

Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi everyone

Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?

Best regards

Raphael

On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com wrote:

...

(Unten auf Deutsch)

Ciao a tutti

Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM è in Italia. [2]

Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle coordinate?

Cordiali saluti

Raphael

---

Hallo zusammen

Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in Italien. [2]

Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?

Beste Grüsse

Raphael

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

---

talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of OGD for the border.

Simon

Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:

...

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to

Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but wasn't sure anymore.)

...

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now.

Okay.

...

I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

That would be very helpful.

Cheers

Raphael

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi Simon, hi everyone!

Unfortunately, the link on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on ground level which i haven't noticed.)

I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).

...

there are larger differences (as i have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences would come from simplification.

It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?

I did.

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi Simon

Thank you very much for your reply!

The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could redraw the national border with it.

The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find anything obvious.

But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side. The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for the coordinates (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be visible on imagery).

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at least currently the data is off limits.

Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).

Simon

Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael: > Hi everyone > > Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D? > > Best regards > > Raphael > > On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com wrote: >> (Unten auf Deutsch) >> >> Ciao a tutti >> >> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su >> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine >> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre >> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta >> della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM >> è in Italia. [2] >> >> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di >> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in >> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle >> coordinate? >> >> Cordiali saluti >> >> Raphael >> >> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html >> >> ---- >> >> Hallo zusammen >> >> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei >> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens >> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig >> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel >> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della >> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in >> Italien. [2] >> >> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? >> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch >> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen? >> >> Beste Grüsse >> >> Raphael >> >> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html > _______________________________________________ > talk-ch mailing list > talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch > http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.

It’s complicated.

Die Schweiz und Italien streiten um die Landesgrenze im Hochgebirge https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-italien-streiten-im-hochgebirge-ld.1546141, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 2020-04-13 Italy’s Alpine Border Melts and Leaves a Pasta Restaurant In Switzerland—Maybe https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-alpine-border-melts-and-leaves-a-pasta-restaurant-in-switzerlandmaybe-11582134089?mod=e2tw, Wall Street Journal, 2020-02-19 Per un pugno di metri: Svizzera e Italia rivedono i confini https://www.swissinfo.ch/ita/per-un-pugno-di-metri--svizzera-e-italia-rivedono-i-confini/487504, Swissinfo, 2009-04-14 Verlauf der Grenze zwischen der Schweiz und Italien https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/de/home/das-eda/aktuell/news.html/content/eda/de/meta/news/2009/8/19/28489, EDA, 2009-08-19 Präzisierte Landesgrenze zu Italien https://www.nzz.ch/praezisierte_landesgrenze_zu_italien-1.3375517, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 2009-08-20 Scambio di Note tra la Repubblica italiana e la Confederazione svizzera relativo ai confini « mobili » sulla linea di cresta o displuviale https://www.camera.it/_dati/leg16/lavori/stampati/pdf/16PDL0020710.pdf, Camera dei Deputati [d’Italia], 2008-05-26

— Sascha

Am Mi., 8. Sept. 2021 um 22:05 Uhr schrieb Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com:

Hello Simon

No problem and thanks for the link!

I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020. [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of OGD for the border.

Simon

Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:

...

...

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM

to

...

...

...

close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no

international

...

...

...

boundaries there that they could correspond to

Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but wasn't sure anymore.)

...

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now.

Okay.

...

I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

That would be very helpful.

Cheers

Raphael

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi Simon, hi everyone!

Unfortunately, the link on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't

work

...

...

...

...

anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on ground level which i haven't noticed.)

I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM

to

...

...

...

close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no

international

...

...

...

boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo

boundaries

...

...

...

are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).

...

there are larger differences (as i have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences would come from simplification.

It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?

I did.

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael: > Hi Simon > > Thank you very much for your reply! > > The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all > version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it > was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i

could

...

...

...

...

...

> redraw the national border with it. The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was

a

...

...

...

...

...

neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data

for

...

...

...

...

...

technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems,

but

...

...

...

...

...

maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find anything obvious.

But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is

in the

...

...

...

...

...

correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116

seems

...

...

...

...

...

to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other

side.

...

...

...

...

...

The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source

for

...

...

...

...

...

the coordinates (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe),

or

...

...

...

...

...

survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might

actually be

...

...

...

...

...

visible on imagery).

Simon

> Best regards > > Raphael > > On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote: >> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from >> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D

. In

...

...

...

...

...

>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume

that at

...

...

...

...

...

>> least currently the data is off limits. >> >> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is

there

...

...

...

...

...

>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it

simply an

...

...

...

...

...

>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone). >> >> Simon >> >> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael: >>> Hi everyone >>> >>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use

swissBOUNDARIES3D?

...

...

...

...

...

>>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Raphael >>> >>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com

wrote:

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch) >>>> >>>> Ciao a tutti >>>> >>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è

impreciso su

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di

confine

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il

confine corre

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la

Cappelletta

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma

in OSM

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> è in Italia. [2] >>>> >>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di >>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile

direttamente in

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle >>>> coordinate? >>>> >>>> Cordiali saluti >>>> >>>> Raphael >>>> >>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>> [3]:

https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> Hallo zusammen >>>> >>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte

Generoso bei

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines

Wissens

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor

gültig

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>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen

(Beispiel

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>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna

della

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>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich

jedoch in

...

...

...

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>>>> Italien. [2] >>>> >>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]

korrigieren?

...

...

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>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss

ich noch

...

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...

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>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen? >>>> >>>> Beste Grüsse >>>> >>>> Raphael >>>> >>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>> [3]:

https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html

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>>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk-ch mailing list >>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >> _______________________________________________ >> talk-ch mailing list >> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch > _______________________________________________ > talk-ch mailing list > talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch > http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 07:20, Sascha Brawer sascha@brawer.ch wrote:

It’s complicated. [...]

Thanks, Sascha, for the informative links.

On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

There are at least some indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG

But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the already mentioned simplification could be part of that)

Here's the situation on Monte Generoso – the light blue line is the boundary according to the Regione Lombardia and the red line according to swissBOUNDARIES3D:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIdJiHYAsnLMSGz6CqevYeiemCGHoqld/view?usp=s...

I don't know why the boundaries differ so much and so irregulary (astonishingly the orthophotos from Swisstopo and from the Regione Lombardia are almost congruent). In any case, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D runs through the boundary stones (e.g. [1]) while that from Regione Lombardia doesn't. Therefore i'll not ajust the boundary to that from the Regione Lombardia. Instead i'm going to move it to the boundary stones that i mapped or improved. This is likely not 100 % accurate (as i wrote, there are probably some boundary markers on the ground, which i haven't noticed), but still better than the current situation.

[1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cippo_di_confine_Monte_Generoso_n%C2...

Best regards and a nice weekend to everyone

Raphael

On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

Am 08.09.2021 um 22:05 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hello Simon

No problem and thanks for the link!

I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020. [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.

As Sascha has pointed out it isn't so simple with "no disputes" but I don't think this is the cause for the mismatch. There are at least some indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG

But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the already mentioned simplification could be part of that)

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed tohttps://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of OGD for the border.

Simon

Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:

...

...

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to

Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but wasn't sure anymore.)

...

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now.

Okay.

...

I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

That would be very helpful.

Cheers

Raphael

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hi Simon, hi everyone!

Unfortunately, the link on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on ground level which i haven't noticed.)

I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).

...

there are larger differences (as i have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences would come from simplification.

It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?

I did.

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote: > Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael: >> Hi Simon >> >> Thank you very much for your reply! >> >> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all >> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it >> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could >> redraw the national border with it. > The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a > neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for > technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but > maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find > anything obvious. > > But in any casehttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the > correct place, buthttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems > to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side. > The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for > the coordinates > (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or > survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be > visible on imagery). > > Simon > > >> Best regards >> >> Raphael >> >> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote: >>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from >>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In >>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at >>> least currently the data is off limits. >>> >>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there >>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an >>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone). >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael: >>>> Hi everyone >>>> >>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D? >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Raphael >>>> >>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphaeldafadllyn@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch) >>>>> >>>>> Ciao a tutti >>>>> >>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su >>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine >>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre >>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta >>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM >>>>> è in Italia. [2] >>>>> >>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di >>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in >>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle >>>>> coordinate? >>>>> >>>>> Cordiali saluti >>>>> >>>>> Raphael >>>>> >>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html >>>>> >>>>> ---- >>>>> >>>>> Hallo zusammen >>>>> >>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei >>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens >>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig >>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel >>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della >>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in >>>>> Italien. [2] >>>>> >>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? >>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch >>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen? >>>>> >>>>> Beste Grüsse >>>>> >>>>> Raphael >>>>> >>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk-ch mailing list >>>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk-ch mailing list >>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >> _______________________________________________ >> talk-ch mailing list >> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch > _______________________________________________ > talk-ch mailing list > talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch > http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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Hi Raphael,

You can use swisstopo data now (but I don't think it is necessary to change things in any case), see the mail that I just sent to this list: http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2021-September/011262.html

Simon

Am 10.09.2021 um 22:13 schrieb Raphael:

On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 07:20, Sascha Brawer sascha@brawer.ch wrote:

...

It’s complicated. [...]

Thanks, Sascha, for the informative links.

On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

There are at least some indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG

But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the already mentioned simplification could be part of that)

Here's the situation on Monte Generoso – the light blue line is the boundary according to the Regione Lombardia and the red line according to swissBOUNDARIES3D:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIdJiHYAsnLMSGz6CqevYeiemCGHoqld/view?usp=s...

I don't know why the boundaries differ so much and so irregulary (astonishingly the orthophotos from Swisstopo and from the Regione Lombardia are almost congruent). In any case, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D runs through the boundary stones (e.g. [1]) while that from Regione Lombardia doesn't. Therefore i'll not ajust the boundary to that from the Regione Lombardia. Instead i'm going to move it to the boundary stones that i mapped or improved. This is likely not 100 % accurate (as i wrote, there are probably some boundary markers on the ground, which i haven't noticed), but still better than the current situation.

Best regards and a nice weekend to everyone

Raphael

On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 08.09.2021 um 22:05 schrieb Raphael:

...

Hello Simon

No problem and thanks for the link!

I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020. [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.

As Sascha has pointed out it isn't so simple with "no disputes" but I don't think this is the cause for the mismatch. There are at least some indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG

But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the already mentioned simplification could be part of that)

Simon

...

Best regards

Raphael

On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed tohttps://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of OGD for the border.

Simon

Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:

...

...

There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to

Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but wasn't sure anymore.)

...

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now.

Okay.

...

I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

That would be very helpful.

Cheers

Raphael

On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote:

...

Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael: > Hi Simon, hi everyone! > > Unfortunately, the link on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work > anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the > boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't > access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the > boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than > there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on > ground level which i haven't noticed.) > > I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While > there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva > to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the > boundaries differ up to 1.3 km), There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).

> there are larger differences (as i > have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de > Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences > would come from simplification. > > It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. > Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data? I did.

Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.

Simon

> Best regards > > Raphael > > On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote: >> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael: >>> Hi Simon >>> >>> Thank you very much for your reply! >>> >>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all >>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it >>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could >>> redraw the national border with it. >> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a >> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for >> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but >> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find >> anything obvious. >> >> But in any casehttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the >> correct place, buthttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems >> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side. >> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for >> the coordinates >> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or >> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be >> visible on imagery). >> >> Simon >> >> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Raphael >>> >>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch wrote: >>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from >>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see >>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In >>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at >>>> least currently the data is off limits. >>>> >>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there >>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an >>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone). >>>> >>>> Simon >>>> >>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael: >>>>> Hi everyone >>>>> >>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D? >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> >>>>> Raphael >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphaeldafadllyn@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch) >>>>>> >>>>>> Ciao a tutti >>>>>> >>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su >>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine >>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre >>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta >>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM >>>>>> è in Italia. [2] >>>>>> >>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di >>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in >>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle >>>>>> coordinate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cordiali saluti >>>>>> >>>>>> Raphael >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html >>>>>> >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> Hallo zusammen >>>>>> >>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei >>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens >>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig >>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel >>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della >>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in >>>>>> Italien. [2] >>>>>> >>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren? >>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch >>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen? >>>>>> >>>>>> Beste Grüsse >>>>>> >>>>>> Raphael >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> talk-ch mailing list >>>>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> talk-ch mailing list >>>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >>> _______________________________________________ >>> talk-ch mailing list >>> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch >> _______________________________________________ >> talk-ch mailing list >> talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch >> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch > _______________________________________________ > talk-ch mailing list > talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch > http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch

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