Hi everyone,
it seems there is a misunderstanding: I've only removed separate footways besides streets that were already tagged with sidewalk=* (or added a sidewalk=* key to the road and removed the sidewalk where I noticed a problem), following the recommendations on the wiki. I've not deleted a single sidewalk information.
(The same is true for the terrace of the restaurant: I've removed the wrong biergarten - according to the wiki, a biergarten is 'an open-air area where beer is served and you are allowed to bring your own food' - and added outdoor_seating=yes to the restaurant. Furthermore, because it is the same restaurant, 'One feature, one OSM element' applies here.)
@Andreas Bürki: Next time, please check the facts before accusing someone of 'doing some nasty work'. (I'll take 'Mr cleaner' as a compliment for doing clean-up work. :-))
As for the discussion sidewalk=* vs footway: I think it is most important that the mapping is done consistently - at least for a single locality - to prevent confusion for map users, and that regional decisions are well documented on the wiki to prevent misunderstandings and extra work for mappers.
In my opinion, it makes sense to follow the recommendations on the wiki - i.e. 'to map the sidewalk as property on the street if the sidewalk is just attached with a kerb and not separated by a road verge or other barriers' - because of:
* Routing: Separately mapped sidewalks break any straightforward routing on streets that can be crossed anywhere (especially in living areas). * GPS: GPS receivers are generally not enough precise to determine if someone is either on the street, on the left sidewalk or on the right sidewalk. * Simplicity: It is easier to map and to maintain. And no information is lost. Also, please bear in mind that a map always is a simplification. * Clarity: for map users
And I don't see any disadvantages - why should blind people prefer separate footways over sidewalk=*? Isn't it easier to produce narrative directions with sidewalk=* keys? Besides, sidewalk:*:tactile_paving tags can be added to roads too.
Kind regards,
SelfishSeahorse
----
'Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher.' -Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Hello Selfish Seahorse
Am 01.09.2017 um 22:05 schrieb Selfish Seahorse:
Hi everyone,
it seems there is a misunderstanding: I've only removed separate footways besides streets that were already tagged with sidewalk=* (or added a sidewalk=* key to the road and removed the sidewalk where I noticed a problem), following the recommendations on the wiki. I've not deleted a single sidewalk information.
(The same is true for the terrace of the restaurant: I've removed the wrong biergarten - according to the wiki, a biergarten is 'an open-air area where beer is served and you are allowed to bring your own food'
- and added outdoor_seating=yes to the restaurant. Furthermore,
because it is the same restaurant, 'One feature, one OSM element' applies here.)
@Andreas Bürki: Next time, please check the facts before accusing someone of 'doing some nasty work'. (I'll take 'Mr cleaner' as a compliment for doing clean-up work. :-))
OK, cleaning is the wrong expression, correct would be "Mr. Delete".
As you might have noticed, there are several ways to map a sidewalk. Either as a as refinement to a highway or as a separate way. These are facts:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalk
So, instead of "solving a problem" by deleting an existing sidewalk and adding a tag to the street, you could as well have fixed the wrong or missing tags and leave the sidewalk.
An I stick to my statement Selfish Seahorse, deleting is imho always a very bad idea, as it might considered as (a) disrespecting somebody else's work and as well as (b) de-motivating.
Finally Selfish Seahorse, just for your information, the Vermessungsamt der Statdt Bern displays/renders the Trottoirs all over the place of the city of Bern as well. Thus, I don't think that mapping sidewalks separately from the street, is so wrong.
http://map.bern.ch/stadtplan/?grundplan=av_farbig&koor=2601047,1199101&a...
As for the discussion sidewalk=* vs footway: I think it is most important that the mapping is done consistently - at least for a single locality - to prevent confusion for map users, and that regional decisions are well documented on the wiki to prevent misunderstandings and extra work for mappers.
Fully agree. In Bern these is most of the time done by sidewalks. And if there are wrong or missing tags, so please fix them and not just delete the sidewalks...
In my opinion, it makes sense to follow the recommendations on the wiki - i.e. 'to map the sidewalk as property on the street if the sidewalk is just attached with a kerb and not separated by a road verge or other barriers' - because of:
- Routing: Separately mapped sidewalks break any straightforward
routing on streets that can be crossed anywhere (especially in living areas).
- GPS: GPS receivers are generally not enough precise to determine if
someone is either on the street, on the left sidewalk or on the right sidewalk.
- Simplicity: It is easier to map and to maintain. And no information
is lost. Also, please bear in mind that a map always is a simplification.
Some may say that, on the other hand, when looking at tons of OSM tagging possibilities (e.g. garbage cans, Robby-Dogs, and and etc.) I have my doubts.
Simplification is a big word. If OSM really want simplify to the max, it might b better not to render any map publicly any more longer. As it might be, that "simplified" maps might look really ugly to the public.
- Clarity: for map users
No, map users in front of a screen (laptop or smart-phone) will see only a street. And no Trottoir (sidewalk) at all.
And I don't see any disadvantages - why should blind people prefer separate footways over sidewalk=*? Isn't it easier to produce narrative directions with sidewalk=* keys? Besides, sidewalk:*:tactile_paving tags can be added to roads too.
Sidewalks have sometimes different surface than the street...
cheeers, h.
Kind regards,
SelfishSeahorse
'Il semble que la perfection soit atteinte non quand il n'y a plus rien à ajouter, mais quand il n'y a plus rien à retrancher.' -Antoine de Saint-Exupéry _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hi Andreas
As you might have noticed, there are several ways to map a sidewalk. Either as a as refinement to a highway or as a separate way. These are facts:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalk
So, instead of "solving a problem" by deleting an existing sidewalk and adding a tag to the street, you could as well have fixed the wrong or missing tags and leave the sidewalk.
Yes, I know perfectly well. As you wrote: either ... or, but not both of it. I'm wondering how you fix a road tagged with sidewalk=* plus a separate parallel sidewalk without deleting anything?
Finally Selfish Seahorse, just for your information, the Vermessungsamt der Statdt Bern displays/renders the Trottoirs all over the place of the city of Bern as well. Thus, I don't think that mapping sidewalks separately from the street, is so wrong.
http://map.bern.ch/stadtplan/?grundplan=av_farbig&koor=2601047,1199101&a...
They display all the sidewalks only on the plot map (Parzellenplan), not on the city map. On the latter, the sidewalk is only mapped if there is a barrier between the road and the sidewalk (which corresponds to the recommendation on our wiki).
Fully agree. In Bern these is most of the time done by sidewalks.
If this is general opinion, it would be best to add this information to the [local tagging scheme](http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features).
No, map users in front of a screen (laptop or smart-phone) will see only a street. And no Trottoir (sidewalk) at all.
That's only true for the standard layer, but the sidewalks can be displayed too, like on this [ITO map](http://product.itoworld.com/map/126). An option displaying them could be added to the main page.
The question is: are OSM (or Maps.me etc.) users interested in seeing this information by default or don't they find it distracting (because it makes the map look cluttered)?
Sidewalks have sometimes different surface than the street...
This can be handled with sidewalk:*:surface=*. It is even possible to add width and kerb information.
Regards
SelfishSeahorse
You could also ask "Are OSM users interested to see motorways" , e.g. if they drive on a bicycle. :-)
Navigation programs and their renderers have to become smarter and only show information that is interesting to the user at any particular moment, be it POIs, cycleways, sidewalks, power lines, motorways etc.
m.
On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Selfish Seahorse selfishseahorse@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Andreas
As you might have noticed, there are several ways to map a sidewalk. Either as a as refinement to a highway or as a separate way. These are facts:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalk
So, instead of "solving a problem" by deleting an existing sidewalk and adding a tag to the street, you could as well have fixed the wrong or missing tags and leave the sidewalk.
Yes, I know perfectly well. As you wrote: either ... or, but not both of it. I'm wondering how you fix a road tagged with sidewalk=* plus a separate parallel sidewalk without deleting anything?
Finally Selfish Seahorse, just for your information, the Vermessungsamt der Statdt Bern displays/renders the Trottoirs all over the place of the city of Bern as well. Thus, I don't think that mapping sidewalks separately from the street, is so wrong.
http://map.bern.ch/stadtplan/?grundplan=av_farbig&koor=2601047,1199101&a...
They display all the sidewalks only on the plot map (Parzellenplan), not on the city map. On the latter, the sidewalk is only mapped if there is a barrier between the road and the sidewalk (which corresponds to the recommendation on our wiki).
Fully agree. In Bern these is most of the time done by sidewalks.
If this is general opinion, it would be best to add this information to the [local tagging scheme](http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features).
No, map users in front of a screen (laptop or smart-phone) will see only a street. And no Trottoir (sidewalk) at all.
That's only true for the standard layer, but the sidewalks can be displayed too, like on this [ITO map](http://product.itoworld.com/map/126). An option displaying them could be added to the main page.
The question is: are OSM (or Maps.me etc.) users interested in seeing this information by default or don't they find it distracting (because it makes the map look cluttered)?
Sidewalks have sometimes different surface than the street...
This can be handled with sidewalk:*:surface=*. It is even possible to add width and kerb information.
Regards
SelfishSeahorse _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
On 03/09/17 12:20, Selfish Seahorse wrote:
As you might have noticed, there are several ways to map a sidewalk. Either as a as refinement to a highway or as a separate way. These are facts:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sidewalk
So, instead of "solving a problem" by deleting an existing sidewalk and adding a tag to the street, you could as well have fixed the wrong or missing tags and leave the sidewalk.
Yes, I know perfectly well. As you wrote: either ... or, but not both of it. I'm wondering how you fix a road tagged with sidewalk=* plus a separate parallel sidewalk without deleting anything?
I would assume that the additional sidewalk tag was left over from when the sidewalk was not mapped as a separate way (the usual from simple to detailed). I would assume that at least someone thought the sidewalk qualifies for being mapped separately. If I think he did too much (I stumbled once over such a case) I reach out to the mapper.
Michael
Hope you don't mind an outsider chiming in, but with this discussion being linked in Weekly OSM and the topic being of general interest, I'd like to add my 2 cents.
On 02.09.2017 21:44, Andreas Bürki wrote:
An I stick to my statement Selfish Seahorse, deleting is imho always a very bad idea, as it might considered as (a) disrespecting somebody else's work and as well as (b) de-motivating.
A fundamental problem with current sidewalk way mapping is that the relationship between road sections and sidewalk sections is lost. That information is available when using tags on the road, and stops being available when you draw separate ways – you end up with several ways close to each other, with no machine-understandable association.
Mapping a sidewalk as a separate way may not *feel* like deleting something, but it destroys important information nevertheless.
Happy mapping, Tobias
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Andreas Bürki -
Marc Gemis -
michael spreng -
Selfish Seahorse -
Tobias Knerr