tl;dr: I seek advice for tagging different facilities for childcare in Switzerland.
Dear list
I got a waiver to import data from the city of Uster [1] and am in the process of preparing this data for an import. Before discussing the specifics of this import, I would like to clarify some general questions regarding Switzerland-specific tagging of places for childcare that came up while working with this dataset.
Regarding childcare I would like to be able to tag the following use-cases, which I believe should cover the most common cases we have in Switzerland:
- A: (what I call "Kindergarten" in german): Part of the mandatory swiss school education for children of the age of approx. 4 to 6. - B: ("Kita"): Where working parents can bring their children (approx. aged 0 to 4) during office hours (up to 5 full days a week). There is a definition at [2] that defines a Kita/use-case B as: Cares periodically for children aged 3 months until the age where compulsory school ends, on at least 5 half-days, offering 6 or more slots. - C: ("Spielgruppe"): Where children go approx. once per week for only a few hours. The legal hurdles to operate such a facility are lower than those for use-case B, but seem to differ for each canton. Food/lunch is normally not offered. - D: ("Hort"): Where children of age approx. 4+ go before/between/after mandatory school visits, so parents can work. - E: ("Krabbelgruppe"): A place where parents together with their children (aged approx. 0 to 2) meet regularly (e.g. once per week) for a small number of hours.
I have a bit of a hard time mapping the existing Wiki entries to the above use-cases. My understanding (mostly from [3]) is this:
- A: amenity=kindergarten, preschool=yes, operator:type=public, min_age=4, max_age=6, isced:level:2011=0 - B: amenity=kindergarten, nursery=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=3 months, breakfast=yes, lunch=yes - C: amenity=kindergarten, operator:type=private, min_age=4 - D: amenity=kindergarten, after_school=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=4, - E: (seems undefined yet)
What I don't like about it:
- The tagging for these almost don't differ, although I expect that for parents looking for a form of childcare the differences are significant. Especially between use-case B and C there is almost no distinction. - amenity=kindergarten is used 2427 times in Switzerland [4]. There is a competing tag amenity=childcare that is used non-negligible 726 times [5] in Switzerland. Its meaning is unclear to me (see [6] and [7]) and it is mentioned in a rejected [8] and an abandoned [9] proposal.
Please share your input on the following questions:
- Have I missed a significant use-case for childcare? - Do you agree with my tagging for the aforementioned use-cases? - Do you see a good way how we could tag the difference between use-cases B and C? Is this already given by nursery=yes? Maybe tag their membership to either kibesuisse (use-case B) [10] or SSLV (use-case C) [11] (might not be given/known for all)? How to do so? Or define a tag playgroup=yes or CH:playgroup=yes? - Do you agree in deprecating and manually retagging amenity=childcare instances? - What would be the easiest way to get a list of all mappers that tagged amenity=childcare onto objects in Switzerland to invite them for input? - Shall I (we?) go to the tagging mailing list trying to get consensus for a tag for use-case E? What should it be? baby_crawling_group=yes ? - Do you know any public map that is already showing the given use-cases? - What have I missed or got wrong?
Links:
[1] https://github.com/GesellschaftStadtUster/kind-jugend-fam_angebote [2] https://www.sslv.ch/erlaeuterung-zur-definition.html [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten [4] http://taginfo.osm.ch/tags/amenity=kindergarten [5] http://taginfo.osm.ch/tags/amenity=childcare [6] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare [7] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare [8] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare [9] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0 [10] https://www.kibesuisse.ch/ [11] https://www.sslv.ch
Best regards
Lukas
Am 26.12.2021 um 16:51 schrieb Toggenburger Lukas:
- Do you agree in deprecating and manually retagging amenity=childcare instances?
Nope.
As you probably know the mapping of childcare facilities has a rather mixed, if not to say controversial history in OSM. But the infamous original amenity=childcare proposal didn't fail because it doesn't make sense to tag different things differently, but because of weaknesses in the proposal itself. But outside of the specific proposal it the use of the tagging has been largely unproblematic and in the same order of magnitude as amenity=kindergarten in CH.
In any case of the German-speaking countries I know of, only Austria -actually- uses "Kindergarten" (irl) for other things than pre-school education and I would consider it too confusing to treat general childcare and Kindergarten as the same thing here. Additionally in CH we have a very clear delineation as all cantons provide at least one year of Kindergarten and all with the exception GR require at least one year of mandatory attendance. I can't see a rationale for mixing up the 1st level of state provided education with everything else that has a clearly different purpose.
The other reason to not mix things up is while we have a formal legal definition of Kindergarten we don't really have it for anything else, outside of permission being required to offer such services for children under the age of 12 (there are some Cantons that regulate a bit more in detail) . So really those clear cut categories don't exist outside of whatever the facility uses in their name.
Simon
Hey Simon
Thanks for taking the time and responding to my mail.
Regarding my proposition to deprecate amenity=childcare: I didn't want to appear harsh and don't have a strong opinion on which tags to use. My goal was and is to reach a consensus on how to tag the different kinds of facilities for childcare, so mappers and data consumers alike have a common understanding on what means what and have a clear distiction tagging-wise. This was made difficult due to several facts:
- Different meanings of the word "kindergarten" - Unclear instructions on the wiki on what tags to use - Rejected/abandoned proposals that are in use anyway
My ideal outcome of this exchange would be that we - reach a common understanding of - what the most common scenarios in Switzerland are - how we tag them (which IMHO due to circumstances may differ from other countries) - document the desired tagging as "the truth" for Switzerland on the wiki
Is my understanding correct that you propose to tag only case A as amenity=kindergarten and everything else as amenity=childcare? So that would be:
- A: (what I call "Kindergarten" in german): Part of the mandatory swiss school education for children of the age of approx. 4 to 6. - B: ("Kita"): Where working parents can bring their children (approx. aged 0 to 4) during office hours (up to 5 full days a week). There is a definition at [2] that defines a Kita/use-case B as: Cares periodically for children aged 3 months until the age where compulsory school ends, on at least 5 half-days, offering 6 or more slots. - C: ("Spielgruppe"): Where children go approx. once per week for only a few hours. The legal hurdles to operate such a facility are lower than those for use-case B, but seem to differ for each canton. Food/lunch is normally not offered. - D: ("Hort"): Where children of age approx. 4+ go before/between/after mandatory school visits, so parents can work. - E: ("Krabbelgruppe"): A place where parents together with their children (aged approx. 0 to 2) meet regularly (e.g. once per week) for a small number of hours.
- A: amenity=kindergarten, preschool=yes, operator:type=public, min_age=4, max_age=6, isced:level:2011=0 - B: amenity=childcare, nursery=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=3 months, breakfast=yes, lunch=yes - C: amenity=childcare, operator:type=private, min_age=4 - D: amenity=childcare, after_school=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=4, - E: ?
I'm looking forward to your input!
Lukas
________________________________________ Von: talk-ch talk-ch-bounces@openstreetmap.ch im Auftrag von Simon Poole simon@poole.ch Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2021 11:10 An: talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Betreff: Re: [talk-ch] Tagging of facilities for childcare in Switzerland
Am 26.12.2021 um 16:51 schrieb Toggenburger Lukas:
- Do you agree in deprecating and manually retagging amenity=childcare instances?
Nope.
As you probably know the mapping of childcare facilities has a rather mixed, if not to say controversial history in OSM. But the infamous original amenity=childcare proposal didn't fail because it doesn't make sense to tag different things differently, but because of weaknesses in the proposal itself. But outside of the specific proposal it the use of the tagging has been largely unproblematic and in the same order of magnitude as amenity=kindergarten in CH.
In any case of the German-speaking countries I know of, only Austria -actually- uses "Kindergarten" (irl) for other things than pre-school education and I would consider it too confusing to treat general childcare and Kindergarten as the same thing here. Additionally in CH we have a very clear delineation as all cantons provide at least one year of Kindergarten and all with the exception GR require at least one year of mandatory attendance. I can't see a rationale for mixing up the 1st level of state provided education with everything else that has a clearly different purpose.
The other reason to not mix things up is while we have a formal legal definition of Kindergarten we don't really have it for anything else, outside of permission being required to offer such services for children under the age of 12 (there are some Cantons that regulate a bit more in detail) . So really those clear cut categories don't exist outside of whatever the facility uses in their name.
Simon
Am 28.12.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Toggenburger Lukas: ...
Is my understanding correct that you propose to tag only case A as amenity=kindergarten and everything else as amenity=childcare? So that would be:
Yes, because on the one hand "Kindergarten" as used in CH is not fuzzy and not supporting duck-tagging is always fraught with issues (it has Kindergarten in its name etc. so why shouldn't it be tagged as a KIndergarten, it would be good to get some input from mappers in the French and Italian speaking regions on if this actually works for them). On the other hand, there are tonnes of fuzziness in all other aspects of childcare, making it an obvious choice to use a different container.
- A: (what I call "Kindergarten" in german): Part of the mandatory swiss school education for children of the age of approx. 4 to 6.
Yes.
- B: ("Kita"): Where working parents can bring their children (approx. aged 0 to 4) during office hours (up to 5 full days a week). There is a definition at [2] that defines a Kita/use-case B as: Cares periodically for children aged 3 months until the age where compulsory school ends, on at least 5 half-days, offering 6 or more slots.
...
- D: ("Hort"): Where children of age approx. 4+ go before/between/after mandatory school visits, so parents can work.
It needs to be clear that these are all German imports and don't have hard and fast definitions here (and again it would be a good idea to know how other regions with less German influence view this). The other problem is that outside of the name the detailed information is often not actually available on the ground, so tagging might often boil down to an amenity=childcare name=xxxxx (again another reason to separate Kindergarten and general childcare).
- C: ("Spielgruppe"): Where children go approx. once per week for only a few hours. The legal hurdles to operate such a facility are lower than those for use-case B, but seem to differ for each canton. Food/lunch is normally not offered.
..
- E: ("Krabbelgruppe"): A place where parents together with their children (aged approx. 0 to 2) meet regularly (e.g. once per week) for a small number of hours.
What I wrote above applies here too, but specifically are these not simply events and not infrastructure, particularly E and as a consequence should not actually be mapped? Analogous to your average school gym ("Turnhalle") in Switzerland; there will be all kind of activities from different operators over the week (Kitu, Jugi, etc etc etc) that are not mappable as such (obviously building, address etc of where they are taking place should be present).
Simon
- A: amenity=kindergarten, preschool=yes, operator:type=public, min_age=4, max_age=6, isced:level:2011=0
- B: amenity=childcare, nursery=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=3 months, breakfast=yes, lunch=yes
- C: amenity=childcare, operator:type=private, min_age=4
- D: amenity=childcare, after_school=yes, operator:type=private, min_age=4,
- E: ?
I'm looking forward to your input!
Lukas
Von: talk-ch talk-ch-bounces@openstreetmap.ch im Auftrag von Simon Poole simon@poole.ch Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Dezember 2021 11:10 An: talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch Betreff: Re: [talk-ch] Tagging of facilities for childcare in Switzerland
Am 26.12.2021 um 16:51 schrieb Toggenburger Lukas:
- Do you agree in deprecating and manually retagging amenity=childcare instances?
Nope.
As you probably know the mapping of childcare facilities has a rather mixed, if not to say controversial history in OSM. But the infamous original amenity=childcare proposal didn't fail because it doesn't make sense to tag different things differently, but because of weaknesses in the proposal itself. But outside of the specific proposal it the use of the tagging has been largely unproblematic and in the same order of magnitude as amenity=kindergarten in CH.
In any case of the German-speaking countries I know of, only Austria -actually- uses "Kindergarten" (irl) for other things than pre-school education and I would consider it too confusing to treat general childcare and Kindergarten as the same thing here. Additionally in CH we have a very clear delineation as all cantons provide at least one year of Kindergarten and all with the exception GR require at least one year of mandatory attendance. I can't see a rationale for mixing up the 1st level of state provided education with everything else that has a clearly different purpose.
The other reason to not mix things up is while we have a formal legal definition of Kindergarten we don't really have it for anything else, outside of permission being required to offer such services for children under the age of 12 (there are some Cantons that regulate a bit more in detail) . So really those clear cut categories don't exist outside of whatever the facility uses in their name.
Simon
talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Hey Simon!
Thanks for your reply!
I like your points and took the liberty to put a summary at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features#Kindergarten_.2... . Everybody feel free to put improvements there. I also plan to link to this page from other pages such as amenity=childcare, etc. I hope that's fine for all.
- C: ("Spielgruppe"): ...
- E: ("Krabbelgruppe"): ...
are these not simply events and not infrastructure, particularly E and as a consequence should not actually be mapped?
Yeah, while C may be a corner case, it's probably true for E... Let's not map those.
Best regards
Lukas
-
Simon Poole -
Toggenburger Lukas