Hello Lausanne mappers,
Highway=primary for national road 1 is interrupted in Placette du Tunnel. Highways should not be interrupted inside cities. I suppose the Lausanne road network isn't as well organized as it was when I first learned to drive (and had to follow the “Berne” signs). But are there really no signs pointing to Geneva for cars arriving from the north of Lausanne?
In the "Guichet cartographique cantonal" map (OSM-based) at https://www.geo.vd.ch/ the road network hierarchy can be displayed. Rue Caroline seems to be the primary highway.
Regards, Marc Mongenet
Bonjour,
On peut aussi se référer aux cartes de la confédération. Les routes de transit importantes sont en rose, il s'agit en général les routes nationales annotées du numéro encadré. Ref:
https://prod-swishop-s3.s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/2024-03/symbols_fr.pdf
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=fr&zoom=7&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.sw...
Le rose sur OSM ne semble viser que les autoroutes, alors qu'elle devrait aussi concerner les routes nationales par définition "primary for national roads". Apparemment, il a été pris d'usage d'annoter les routes nationales en orange.
Ce choix particulier a probablement été disserté. Quelqu'un en sait plus?
Le 26/04/2024 21:50, Marc Mongenet a écrit :
Hello Lausanne mappers,
Highway=primary for national road 1 is interrupted in Placette du Tunnel. Highways should not be interrupted inside cities. I suppose the Lausanne road network isn't as well organized as it was when I first learned to drive (and had to follow the “Berne” signs). But are there really no signs pointing to Geneva for cars arriving from the north of Lausanne?
In the "Guichet cartographique cantonal" map (OSM-based) at https://www.geo.vd.ch/ the road network hierarchy can be displayed. Rue Caroline seems to be the primary highway.
Regards, Marc Mongenet _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list -- talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch To unsubscribe send an email to talk-ch-leave@openstreetmap.ch
Hi
Sorry my french is not that good
On 27.04.24 13:56, Patrick Eggli wrote:
Le rose sur OSM ne semble viser que les autoroutes, alors qu'elle devrait aussi concerner les routes nationales par définition "primary for national roads". Apparemment, il a été pris d'usage d'annoter les routes nationales en orange.
I would refer to the osm classes of primary, secondary and so on instead of colors which refer to a particular map style. Anyway, the documentation about which class maps onto which roads in Switzerland is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features
Now the primary in particular has problems for example in Zurich (I don't know the situation in Lausanne) where signage just vanishes inside the city. They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.
Michael
“They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.“ It's certainly a good idea in 2024 to reflect that, don't you think? Yves
Le 27 avril 2024 15:37:48 GMT+02:00, "michael spreng (datendelphin)" mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
Hi
Sorry my french is not that good
On 27.04.24 13:56, Patrick Eggli wrote:
Le rose sur OSM ne semble viser que les autoroutes, alors qu'elle devrait aussi concerner les routes nationales par définition "primary for national roads". Apparemment, il a été pris d'usage d'annoter les routes nationales en orange.
I would refer to the osm classes of primary, secondary and so on instead of colors which refer to a particular map style. Anyway, the documentation about which class maps onto which roads in Switzerland is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features
Now the primary in particular has problems for example in Zurich (I don't know the situation in Lausanne) where signage just vanishes inside the city. They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.
Michael _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list -- talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch To unsubscribe send an email to talk-ch-leave@openstreetmap.ch
Hi everyone,
That gap is my fault :) I've made a number of updates to the road classes in Lausanne to reflect ongoing changes in the road network here: - previously the primary continued from the current gap at Tunnel via Rue Centrale, Flon and Rue de Genève to the Malley roundabout roughly matching the classes on Swisstopo, but that has not been updated yet to reflect recent changes in Lausanne - the easternmost part of Rue de Genève is now closed for construction and will remain permanently closed to cars, but all the rest of Rue de Genève is essentially one large construction site as well (until 2026 for https://tramway-lausannois.ch/) and not well suited for through-traffic - I upgraded Avenue de France/Tivoli/Jules-Gonin from Malley to St François from secondary to primary as that's the main option for going west now - I'm not a car user myself and not familiar with all current signposting, so I didn't want to make edits that don't reflect the on-the-ground situation, but I think the best way to close the gap would be to upgrade Rue Caroline leading to St François to primary. I can do that soon unless somebody else has any other suggestions.
Best, Enno (eginhard)
On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 3:46 PM Yves ycai@mailbox.org wrote:
“They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.“ It's certainly a good idea in 2024 to reflect that, don't you think? Yves
Le 27 avril 2024 15:37:48 GMT+02:00, "michael spreng (datendelphin)" < mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net> a écrit :
Hi
Sorry my french is not that good
On 27.04.24 13:56, Patrick Eggli wrote:
Le rose sur OSM ne semble viser que les autoroutes, alors qu'elle devrait aussi concerner les routes nationales par définition "primary for national roads". Apparemment, il a été pris d'usage d'annoter les routes nationales en orange.
I would refer to the osm classes of primary, secondary and so on instead of colors which refer to a particular map style. Anyway, the documentation about which class maps onto which roads in Switzerland is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features
Now the primary in particular has problems for example in Zurich (I don't know the situation in Lausanne) where signage just vanishes inside the city. They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.
Michael
talk-ch mailing list -- talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch To unsubscribe send an email to talk-ch-leave@openstreetmap.ch
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Le sam. 27 avr. 2024 à 15:38, michael spreng (datendelphin) mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
Now the primary in particular has problems for example in Zurich (I don't know the situation in Lausanne) where signage just vanishes inside the city. They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.
Michael
We also encountered problems in the canton of Geneva, where there is only one 1st class road, no blue road signs containing the number "1" , and it is not even clear where national road 1 officially ends. We therefore used a set of criteria inspired by OSM's general rules (the primary network is the network linking major towns), inspired by the road network hierarchy defined by the local authorities, and inspired by actual road signs and traffic. This makes armchair mapping more difficult, but produces a map that better reflects what's actually on the ground.
It should be noted that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features#Highway was discussed around 2007 https://web.archive.org/web/20081205060125/http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wik... when the road network wasn't even fully mapped in OSM. 17 years later, these rules show some limitations, particularly with the deployment of policies against motorized traffic in cities.
Marc Mongenet
Bonjour,
En réalité, partout où ces routes anciennement nationales sont doublées par une autoroute, elles ne sont plus utilisées pour relier des villes majeures, et n'y sont plus destinées. Leur numérotation est un héritage historique mais ne correspond plus à la pratique sur le terrain.
Exemples : l'ancienne N1 entre Lausanne et Genève n'est plus utilisée pour relier ces deux villes, mais pour relier Lausanne à l'EPFL, Morges à St-Prex, ou Nyon à Coppet. Entre Lausanne et Berne, elle reste un axe important pour relier Lausanne à Moudon puis Payerne, mais entre Morat et Berne elle ne capte que le trafic local. L'ancienne N5 n'a gardé sa fonction d'origine qu'entre La Neuveville et Bienne. Plus personne n'utilise la N1 pour aller de Berne à Zürich. Sur tous ces tronçons, on pourrait/devrait se poser la question de les rétrograder en "highway=secondary", ce qui correspondrait à leur destination réelle.
Le statut "highway=primary" reste à mon sens pertinent là où aucun autoroute n'est là pour capter le trafic longue distance; en particulier dans les Alpes, comme la route 19 de Brig à Tamins, la 4 au col du Brünig, etc...
Jacques
Le 28.04.2024 à 22:12, Marc Mongenet a écrit :
Le sam. 27 avr. 2024 à 15:38, michael spreng (datendelphin) mailinglist@osm.datendelphin.net a écrit :
Now the primary in particular has problems for example in Zurich (I don't know the situation in Lausanne) where signage just vanishes inside the city. They really don't want you to drive through the city, but take the ring around it.
Michael
We also encountered problems in the canton of Geneva, where there is only one 1st class road, no blue road signs containing the number "1" , and it is not even clear where national road 1 officially ends. We therefore used a set of criteria inspired by OSM's general rules (the primary network is the network linking major towns), inspired by the road network hierarchy defined by the local authorities, and inspired by actual road signs and traffic. This makes armchair mapping more difficult, but produces a map that better reflects what's actually on the ground.
It should be noted that https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/Map_Features#Highway was discussed around 2007 https://web.archive.org/web/20081205060125/http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wik... when the road network wasn't even fully mapped in OSM. 17 years later, these rules show some limitations, particularly with the deployment of policies against motorized traffic in cities.
Marc Mongenet _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list -- talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch To unsubscribe send an email to talk-ch-leave@openstreetmap.ch
Bonjour à tous,
Je rejoint tout ce qui a été dit. Le passage des routes principales numérotées est compliqué dans les grandes villes, en particulier à Genève (route 1), Fribourg, Aarau, Zürich, et depuis la fermeture de certains tronçons à Lausanne également. Ces numéros sont surtout pertinent pour les routes historiques qui datent de bien avant la construction d'autoroutes, mais restent actives dans la signalisation, y compris dans la signalisation très récente.
En théorie, il faudrait rentrer à Lausanne par la route "1" et suivre les panneaux bleus indiqués "Bern" ou similaire pour déterminer le tracé, et idem en sens inverse, suivre les panneaux bleus marqués "Genève", cependant dès qu'il y a un seul carrefour sans un tel panneau, il y a ambiguïté. Dans ce cas, il faudrait aller au plus direct, c'est à dire continuer tout droit ou suivre la route principale si celle-ci tourne. Malgré ça, il est possible qu'on arrive à des situations ambigües.
Malgré la construction autoroutes, Le status de "highway=primary" reste pertinent dans certains cas :
* Véhicules non autorisés à circuler sur autoroute : Scooters, mobylettes, vélos, tracteurs, etc. * Autoroute fermée pour cause de travaux ou d'accident * Conduite d'un véhicule sans la vignette d'autoroute
Il n'est cependant pas très clair pour quelle catégorie les itinéraires numérotés sont destinés, si c'est destiné aux usagers sans vignettes, alors certains tronçons d'autoroute gratuite comme Neuchâtel-Chaux-de-Fonds sont inclus dans les itinéraires nationaux ; si c'est plutôt destiné au véhicules non habilités à circuler sur autoroute, alors il faut dans ce cas que l'itinéraire passe par une route alternative. En pratique on n'observe pas de cohérence au niveau national pour la signalisation, parfois le numéro de la route indiquera l'autoroute gratuite (sur panneau vert), parfois il indiquera la route historique. Vu que la signalisation en place n'est pas cohérente avec elle-même, OSM ne peut pas être totalement cohérent non plus.
Avec mes meilleures salutations.
-
Enno Hermann -
Jacques Moser -
Jonathan Masur -
Marc Mongenet -
michael spreng (datendelphin) -
Patrick Eggli -
Yves