I've been doing some clean up in the wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/CycleNetwork) on Swiss bicycle routes (and some on the routes themselves).
Could everybody mapping the routes please add their work to the wiki and try and keep it up to date? Since the cyclemap has serious delays in rendering (up to multiple months), the wiki is our only record and reference what has been done, that can give us a more or less current status.
Thank you
Simon
Simon Poole simon@poole.ch writes:
I've been doing some clean up in the wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/CycleNetwork) on Swiss bicycle routes (and some on the routes themselves).
I don't like how the name tag is used here. IMHO it does not make sense to repeat the ref here. It should be what is written on the signs along the route. That might mean the name tag needs to change languages along the way.
The way it is specified now one might get "ncn 8" or "Aare Route" printed on the map depending on the locale. I don't think this is optimal. The ref tag is usually rendered anyway. So there is no point in rendering it also as name. Also, I believe the terms "ncn" and "rcn" are actually not used in Switzerland. Therefore, it might be confusing to have them shown on a map.
Just my 2 Rp.
Matthias
Well I didn't invent the way the names are currently formed and don't really have a strong opinion on the matter. Clearly it is a bit of misuse of the name tab, but it does make the relations easy to find in JOSM.
AFAIK the ref tag has been the only tag that traditionally has been rendered so right now there is no danger of confusion, but we might want to revisit the issue if somebody wants to it differently. A possible compromise would be to leave name as it is, and use name:de, name:fr and name:it for actual rendering of the route name, for which we wouldn't use the plain name tag anyway .
The question is naturally where to get the route names in all languages from without referring to the veloland.ch documentation and if SwissMobil claim any IP rights on them (we naturally already have that potential problem).
Simon
Am 18.06.2011 02:05, schrieb Matthias Julius:
Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch writes:
I've been doing some clean up in the wiki (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EN:Switzerland/CycleNetwork) on Swiss bicycle routes (and some on the routes themselves).
I don't like how the name tag is used here. IMHO it does not make sense to repeat the ref here. It should be what is written on the signs along the route. That might mean the name tag needs to change languages along the way.
The way it is specified now one might get "ncn 8" or "Aare Route" printed on the map depending on the locale. I don't think this is optimal. The ref tag is usually rendered anyway. So there is no point in rendering it also as name. Also, I believe the terms "ncn" and "rcn" are actually not used in Switzerland. Therefore, it might be confusing to have them shown on a map.
Just my 2 Rp.
Matthias _______________________________________________ talk-ch mailing list talk-ch@openstreetmap.ch http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/mailman/listinfo/talk-ch
Simon Poole simon@poole.ch writes:
Well I didn't invent the way the names are currently formed and don't really have a strong opinion on the matter. Clearly it is a bit of misuse of the name tab, but it does make the relations easy to find in JOSM.
AFAIK the ref tag has been the only tag that traditionally has been rendered so right now there is no danger of confusion, but we might want to revisit the issue if somebody wants to it differently. A possible compromise would be to leave name as it is, and use name:de, name:fr and name:it for actual rendering of the route name, for which we wouldn't use the plain name tag anyway .
We can not control who is going to render a map and with which rules and styles. The best we can do is to use established tags according to the convention. If there is no sensible value for the name tag I would just leave it out instead of repeating the ref.
The question is naturally where to get the route names in all languages from without referring to the veloland.ch documentation and if SwissMobil claim any IP rights on them (we naturally already have that potential problem).
I doubt a name like "Aare Route" can hold any copyright. And the natural place to get them from are the signs that are posted along the route.
Matthias
Am 19.06.2011 12:19, schrieb Matthias Julius:
I doubt a name like "Aare Route" can hold any copyright. And the natural place to get them from are the signs that are posted along the route.
If at all, we are talking about trade marks, not copyright. While "Aare Route" is extremely unlikely to be able to be registered, "Herzroute" and some of the more creative route names could be protected in principle. We are digressing in any case, because the route names are -not- displayed on the sign posts and the only place to get them is other SchweizMobil material.
As I pointed out earlier, I'm not particularly in favour of the current naming scheme, it's just been in place for a couple of years, and I don't see a reason to unilaterally change it without a concrete issue at hand or a community consensus to do so.
Simon
Simon Poole simon@poole.ch writes:
Am 19.06.2011 12:19, schrieb Matthias Julius:
I doubt a name like "Aare Route" can hold any copyright. And the natural place to get them from are the signs that are posted along the route.
If at all, we are talking about trade marks, not copyright. While "Aare Route" is extremely unlikely to be able to be registered, "Herzroute" and some of the more creative route names could be protected in principle. We are digressing in any case, because the route names are -not- displayed on the sign posts and the only place to get them is other SchweizMobil material.
Well, at least around here they are displayed on the signs, see http://www.julius-net.net/tmp/2011-06-20 08.33.22s.jpg
I was just skimming through the Swiss trademark law. Particularly interesting I found Art. 16 (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/232_11/a16.html). This says that when you reproduce a registered trademark in a dictionary, a reference book, or similar without a notice about its registration the owner of the trademark can demand that you include such a notice when you publish it the next time.
This to me implies that the reproduction of a trademark in such a work (and I would include the OSM database or a map in there) is permitted and that the worst thing that could happen is that SchweizMobil is coming and wants a notice that its their trademark.
As I pointed out earlier, I'm not particularly in favour of the current naming scheme, it's just been in place for a couple of years, and I don't see a reason to unilaterally change it without a concrete issue at hand or a community consensus to do so.
That's why I posted here first. To see whether there is any opposition to change the definition for the name tag on that wiki page.
I am planning to do just that in a few days if there are no objections.
Matthias
Am 20.06.2011 22:48, schrieb Matthias Julius:
.. I was just skimming through the Swiss trademark law. Particularly interesting I found Art. 16 (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/232_11/a16.html). This says that when you reproduce a registered trademark in a dictionary, a reference book, or similar without a notice about its registration the owner of the trademark can demand that you include such a notice when you publish it the next time.
This to me implies that the reproduction of a trademark in such a work (and I would include the OSM database or a map in there) is permitted and that the worst thing that could happen is that SchweizMobil is coming and wants a notice that its their trademark.
No, the whole point of trademark law is to stop competitors from labelling competing products with the same or similar names and any maps and route descriptions would clearly be exactly that. SchweizMobil has, as you probably know, taken the stance that we are competition (which in some aspects is clearly true).
Anyway the argument is somewhat moot, I just did a short search and couldn't find anything that SchweizMobil has registered (which is the other silly extreme compared to the stuff the Fédération française de la randonnée pédestre has protected). That leaves normal copyright (well really Urheberrecht) protection on their materials.
If you want to do the work to rename everything more power to you.
Simon
Simon Poole simon@poole.ch writes:
No, the whole point of trademark law is to stop competitors from labelling competing products with the same or similar names and any maps and route descriptions would clearly be exactly that. SchweizMobil has, as you probably know, taken the stance that we are competition (which in some aspects is clearly true).
Hmm, you certainly can not print a map and put a big SchweizMobil logo on the cover. But, are you really not allowed to publish a route description or a map from your own observations? And even if the route name was a registered trademark I would argue it applies to the route itself and not to the description or the map. And if you put that name on a map to refer to the original route you are using the trademark as a reference to that.
Anyway the argument is somewhat moot, I just did a short search and couldn't find anything that SchweizMobil has registered (which is the other silly extreme compared to the stuff the Fédération française de la randonnée pédestre has protected). That leaves normal copyright (well really Urheberrecht) protection on their materials.
If you want to do the work to rename everything more power to you.
To do actual renaming would be a next step. One that is probably more controversial than changing the wiki page. The naming does not always even follow that wiki page and is sometimes quite elaborate like "ncn 8 - Aare-Route (Oberwald (Gletsch)-Koblenz)" for the super-relation and "ncn 8 - Etappe 2 (Meiringen-Spiez)" for the second stretch. I did not check the other routes. Those details might be better put into a description tag or so.
Matthias
Am 21.06.2011 01:07, schrieb Matthias Julius:
Simon Poolesimon@poole.ch writes:
No, the whole point of trademark law is to stop competitors from labelling competing products with the same or similar names and any maps and route descriptions would clearly be exactly that. SchweizMobil has, as you probably know, taken the stance that we are competition (which in some aspects is clearly true).
Hmm, you certainly can not print a map and put a big SchweizMobil logo on the cover. But, are you really not allowed to publish a route description or a map from your own observations? And even if the route name was a registered trademark I would argue it applies to the route itself and not to the description or the map. And if you put that name on a map to refer to the original route you are using the trademark as a reference to that.
When you register a trademark (something that I've done many many times) you specify a product/service group(s) that you are/will be using the mark in. At least for those group(s) you get exclusive rights to sell , market etc. products with the mark. With other words you get far broader protection than just for the concrete product you are using the mark for.
For example the French hiking association has registered all it's marks in group 41 (and in a lot of other ones too): KLASSE 41 Erziehung; Ausbildung; Unterhaltung; sportliche und kulturelle Aktivitäten.
See: https://www.ige.ch/d/marke/documents/m12109d.pdf
Simon
Hi,
When you register a trademark (something that I've done many many times) you specify a product/service group(s) that you are/will be using the mark in. At least for those group(s) you get exclusive rights to sell , market etc. products with the mark. With other words you get far broader protection than just for the concrete product you are using the mark for.
For example the French hiking association has registered all it's marks in group 41 (and in a lot of other ones too): KLASSE 41 Erziehung; Ausbildung; Unterhaltung; sportliche und kulturelle Aktivitäten.
I havn't read the pdf, but I've a question. If you register a trademark, you can prohibit someone else to name your product with the name your trademarked? E.g. Mercedes can prohibit you to call their cars "Mercedes"?
Raphael
Am 21.06.2011 08:39, schrieb Raphael Studer:
... See: https://www.ige.ch/d/marke/documents/m12109d.pdf I havn't read the pdf, but I've a question. If you register a trademark, you can prohibit someone else to name your product with the name your trademarked? E.g. Mercedes can prohibit you to call their cars "Mercedes"?
Probably not in the case that it is a simple reference to a product produced by Daimler.
So selling a "Mercedes S320" on a 2nd hand car portal is surely OK (as long as it is an original Mercedes S320), operating a 2nd hand car portal "The Mercedes 2nd hand car portal" wouldn't be (without permission from Daimler).
In the case of the GR-routes, referring to them in an article or a book, along the lines of "I was walking along the GR route xxx..." (probably would really require a trademark sign) is clearly OK. Producing an OSM map with the route marked as GR xxx is probably not. In the end, like most of these things, it would have to be decided in court.
In the case of SchweizMobil since they haven't trademarked anything (as far as a quick search can tell) it would be a lot fuzzier, BUT you could still run afoul of unfair competition regulations (in Germany in any case, but probably in Switzerland too) and in the case of the logos, normal copyright protection.
Simon
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Matthias Julius -
Raphael Studer -
Simon Poole