i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.
It’s complicated.
Die Schweiz und Italien streiten um die Landesgrenze im Hochgebirge https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-italien-streiten-im-hochgebirge-ld.1546141, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 2020-04-13 Italy’s Alpine Border Melts and Leaves a Pasta Restaurant In Switzerland—Maybe https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-alpine-border-melts-and-leaves-a-pasta-restaurant-in-switzerlandmaybe-11582134089?mod=e2tw, Wall Street Journal, 2020-02-19 Per un pugno di metri: Svizzera e Italia rivedono i confini https://www.swissinfo.ch/ita/per-un-pugno-di-metri--svizzera-e-italia-rivedono-i-confini/487504, Swissinfo, 2009-04-14 Verlauf der Grenze zwischen der Schweiz und Italien https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/de/home/das-eda/aktuell/news.html/content/eda/de/meta/news/2009/8/19/28489, EDA, 2009-08-19 Präzisierte Landesgrenze zu Italien https://www.nzz.ch/praezisierte_landesgrenze_zu_italien-1.3375517, Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 2009-08-20 Scambio di Note tra la Repubblica italiana e la Confederazione svizzera relativo ai confini « mobili » sulla linea di cresta o displuviale https://www.camera.it/_dati/leg16/lavori/stampati/pdf/16PDL0020710.pdf, Camera dei Deputati [d’Italia], 2008-05-26
— Sascha
Am Mi., 8. Sept. 2021 um 22:05 Uhr schrieb Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com:
Hello Simon
No problem and thanks for the link!
I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020. [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.
Best regards
Raphael
On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:
Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of OGD for the border.
Simon
Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM
to
close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no
international
boundaries there that they could correspond to
Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but wasn't sure anymore.)
Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now.
Okay.
I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.
That would be very helpful.
Cheers
Raphael
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:
Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
Hi Simon, hi everyone!
Unfortunately, the link on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't
work
anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on ground level which i haven't noticed.)
I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM
to
close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no
international
boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo
boundaries
are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
there are larger differences (as i have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences would come from simplification.
It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D. Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
I did.
Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the specific issue.
Simon
Best regards
Raphael
On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote:
Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael: > Hi Simon > > Thank you very much for your reply! > > The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all > version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it > was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i
could
> redraw the national border with it. The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was
a
neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data
for
technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems,
but
maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find anything obvious.
But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is
in the
correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116
seems
to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other
side.
The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source
for
the coordinates (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe),
or
survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might
actually be
visible on imagery).
Simon
> Best regards > > Raphael > > On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole simon@poole.ch wrote: >> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from >> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D
. In
>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume
that at
>> least currently the data is off limits. >> >> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is
there
>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it
simply an
>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone). >> >> Simon >> >> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael: >>> Hi everyone >>> >>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use
swissBOUNDARIES3D?
>>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Raphael >>> >>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael dafadllyn@gmail.com
wrote:
>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch) >>>> >>>> Ciao a tutti >>>> >>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è
impreciso su
>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di
confine
>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il
confine corre
>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la
Cappelletta
>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza è in territorio svizzero – ma
in OSM
>>>> è in Italia. [2] >>>> >>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di >>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile
direttamente in
>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle >>>> coordinate? >>>> >>>> Cordiali saluti >>>> >>>> Raphael >>>> >>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>> [3]:
https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
>>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> Hallo zusammen >>>> >>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte
Generoso bei
>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines
Wissens
>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor
gültig
>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen
(Beispiel
>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna
della
>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich
jedoch in
>>>> Italien. [2] >>>> >>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]
korrigieren?
>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss
ich noch
>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen? >>>> >>>> Beste Grüsse >>>> >>>> Raphael >>>> >>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901 >>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502 >>>> [3]:
https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
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