[talk-ch] Addresses and all that ... (GWR)

Simon Poole simon at poole.ch
Thu Mar 1 12:37:06 CET 2018

And just in case you didn't have enough of me posting on this topic :-)

The current address counts on a per canton base:
http://qa.poole.ch/addresses/ch_canton would seem to indicate that we
are noe over 50% for Berne.


Am 28.02.2018 um 23:49 schrieb Simon Poole:
> BTW since the beginning of 2018 all the address data in the Kanton
> Zürich is available on a CC0 licence which from a pure legal pov is
> un-problematic (IMHO we should complete the Canton Berne before we
> overreach by trying to do too many things at the same time).
> Simon
> On 28.02.2018 20:59, Olivier Chatelain wrote:
>> Thanks for keeping the topic warm. - Good luck!
>> Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch <mailto:simon at poole.ch>> schrieb am Mi.,
>> 28. Feb. 2018 um 19:13 Uhr:
>>     Short update:
>>     the BfS has now changed the text distributed for the third time
>>     since release (in December), it now includes an attribution
>>     requirement that previously wasn't there. As you may know we
>>     can't offer downstream attribution in OSM and I've asked the BfS
>>     if they could agree to attribution on the wiki page as I've
>>     already mentioned.previously
>>     I don't expect an answer before the 2nd week of March, so we will
>>     just have to wait a bit more.
>>     Simon
>>     On 30.01.2018 21:49, Simon Poole wrote:
>>>     Wiki page:
>>>     https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors
>>>     The disclaimer is semi-nonsense and just restates on the base of which
>>>     ordinance they are making the data available at all (it is not as if
>>>     they were not allowed to define ToU for data of access type A, that's is
>>>     what swisstopo has done for years, and you wouldn't say that swisstopo
>>>     has been breaking the law all the time, or would you? :-)) , I would
>>>     take it essentially as do what you like with it. probably when the
>>>     "official" dataset from swisstopo becomes available it will be on
>>>     different terms.
>>>     Simon
>>>     Am 30.01.2018 um 18:34 schrieb marc marc:
>>>>     Simon which wiki page are you talking about?
>>>>     I didn't understand what the Disclaimer meant to an osm contributor.
>>>>     For postal codes and cities, I think we should also ask ourselves
>>>>     how we want to use them.
>>>>     do we want to duplicate them everywhere on all objects?
>>>>     the best way would be to use this data to build the missing boundary.
>>>>     Le 30. 01. 18 à 18:30, Stefan Keller a écrit :
>>>>>     2018-01-30 10:46 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> <mailto:simon at poole.ch>:
>>>>>>     The main question is if we should do something with the PLZ6 digits or just forget about them.
>>>>>     But you keep the PLZ4? Since Nominatim recently supports them even better [1].
>>>>>     :Stefan
>>>>>     [1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lonvia/diary/43143
>>>>>     2018-01-30 10:46 GMT+01:00 Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> <mailto:simon at poole.ch>:
>>>>>>     @All I've tried to pry something more concrete on the usage terms from our
>>>>>>     contact at the BfS, however this has proven to be more difficult than I
>>>>>>     assumed (or maybe not). In any case the text that is currently pointed to is
>>>>>>     Disclaimer DE
>>>>>>     Gemäss Art. 16 der Verordnung über das eidgenössische Gebäude- und
>>>>>>     Wohnungsregister vom 1. Juli 2017 (VGWR; SR 431.841) veröffentlicht das BFS
>>>>>>     die Daten der Berechtigungsstufen A im Internet. Die Bereitstellung der
>>>>>>     Strassen und der Gebäudeadressen (beide Stufe A) erfolgt gemäss Art. 26a und
>>>>>>     26c der Verordnung über die geografischen Namen vom 21. Mai 2008 (GeoNV; SR
>>>>>>     510.625) durch swisstopo. Das BFS teilt swisstopo die Daten und periodisch
>>>>>>     alle Änderungen mit (Art. 26a Abs. 3 und 26c Abs. 2 GeoNV).
>>>>>>     Die amtlichen Verzeichnisse der Strassen (Art. 26a GeoNV) und der
>>>>>>     Gebäudeadressen (Art. 26c GeoNV) werden aktuell vorbereitet und treten
>>>>>>     schrittweise bis spätestens 1. Juli 2021 in Kraft (Art. 37a GeoNV).
>>>>>>     Um den Zugang zu diesen Daten auch während der Übergangszeit zu ermöglichen,
>>>>>>     kümmert sich das BFS um eine Zwischenlösung. Es ist ein Zugriff auf die
>>>>>>     Daten in Listenform möglich, wobei die Bereitstellung grundsätzlich gemäss
>>>>>>     Art. 26a und 26b GeoNV erfolgt. Diese Listen sind für die Behörden
>>>>>>     unverbindlich. Nur die von swisstopo erstellten und in Betrieb genommenen
>>>>>>     amtlichen Verzeichnisse der Strassen und Gebäudeadressen sind
>>>>>>     behördenverbindlich
>>>>>>     There have been some hints that we should provide attribution which I would
>>>>>>     suggest we do, as customary, on the Contributors wiki page.
>>>>>>     Further note: I've included GWR extracts in OSM format as described below:
>>>>>>     http://qa.poole.ch/addresses/GWR/n.osm.zip
>>>>>>     The main question is if we should do something with the PLZ6 digits or just
>>>>>>     forget about them.
>>>>>>     SImon
>>>>>>     Am 21.12.2017 um 10:01 schrieb Simon Poole:
>>>>>>     I've re-projected the data and split it up in to municipalities, you can get
>>>>>>     the zipped ESRI shapefile from
>>>>>>     http://qa.poole.ch/addresses/GWR/n.zip
>>>>>>     by replacing n with the BfS municipality number.
>>>>>>     Notes:
>>>>>>     a) as already said the use terms are not quite clear right now, and likely
>>>>>>     won't be before Christmas, but obviously you can familiarize yourself with
>>>>>>     the data now. Quality seems to vary a bit, in principle the nodes should be
>>>>>>     where the entrances are, but obviously in many cases that is only very rough
>>>>>>     b) what we want to do with the data in the end is unclear, and likely this
>>>>>>     will have to be decided on canton by canton
>>>>>>     c) if we decide to import the data we need to follow the import process
>>>>>>     d) we are already importing the address data from the Canton of Berne, and
>>>>>>     it would likely be helpful to finish that off before embarking on any thing
>>>>>>     new
>>>>>>     Simon
>>>>>>     Am 19.12.2017 um 18:19 schrieb Simon Poole:
>>>>>>     I had contact with the BfS yesterday and clear terms of use should be
>>>>>>     forthcoming.
>>>>>>     If I get around to it before Christmas, I'll see if I can produce a version
>>>>>>     of the data re-projected to WGS84 coordinates.
>>>>>>     Simon
>>>>>>     On 16. Dezember 2017 15:00:14 MEZ, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> <mailto:simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>     I was originally going to remind everybody, particularly those resident
>>>>>>>     in the canton Berne, that we have an ongoing project to import addresses
>>>>>>>     and trace buildings that is not complete yet
>>>>>>>     http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canton_of_Bern_Address_Import and
>>>>>>>     then I was going to point out that besides the addresses from the canton
>>>>>>>     of Zürich that will become available at the beginning of January, that
>>>>>>>     from our correspondence with the BfS we would be expecting the first
>>>>>>>     address data from the GWR to be available for download in the next
>>>>>>>     quarter too.
>>>>>>>     However yesterday we were a bit surprised by the announcement that data
>>>>>>>     from the GWR would become available immediately in a provisional form
>>>>>>>     (this is what we had actually been actually asking the BfS to do, as
>>>>>>>     there is no clear reason to wait till the "official" v!
>>>>>>>       ersion
>>>>>>>     is prepared
>>>>>>>     by swisstopo, however they hadn't responded in a positive way).
>>>>>>>     The downside is that, beside swisstopo and the BfS creating the
>>>>>>>     impression of a not really well thought out, rather uncoordinated
>>>>>>>     effort, it is currently not clear what the actual licence/use conditions
>>>>>>>     are (there are lots of links being sent around which lead to
>>>>>>>     conflicting, sometimes year old information). We'll see if we can
>>>>>>>     clarify this next week.
>>>>>>>     I've generated a short comparison of where we are in OSM currently vs.
>>>>>>>     the GWR data:  http://qa.poole.ch/addresses/ch_canton
>>>>>>>     Noteworthy points:
>>>>>>>     - last year roughly end of the year we had  667'807 addresses vs.
>>>>>>>     868'960 now, an increase of a good 120'000. Most of this is due to
>>>>>>>     Berne increasing from 88'817 to 190'243 (actually the very small
>>>>>>>     increase in the other cantons is slightly disappointing)
>>>>>>>     - th!
>>>>>>>       e weak
>>>>>>>     cantons are those that we expected
>>>>>>>     - the GWR numbers are lower than those in the available cantonal
>>>>>>>     datasets mainly due to a more restrictive definition of what an address
>>>>>>>     is.
>>>>>>>     As soon as we've clarified the licence situation, we can have a look
>>>>>>>     what the best way will be to utilize the data one way or another.
>>>>>>>     Simon
>>>>     _______________________________________________
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