[talk-ch] Confine nazionale impreciso sul Monte Generoso / Ungenaue Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso

Raphael dafadllyn at gmail.com
Sat Sep 18 22:42:07 CEST 2021


Hi Simon

This is great news!

If i happen to come across places where the current boundary seems
inexact (like buildings belonging to the "wrong" country), i'll adjust
it to swissBOUNDARIES3D – unless there are boundary stones with i can
adjust the boundary to.

Regards

Raphael


On Tue, 14 Sept 2021 at 16:09, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>
> Hi Raphael,
>
> You can use swisstopo data now (but I don't think it is necessary to
> change things in any case), see the mail that I just sent to this list:
> http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2021-September/011262.html
>
> Simon
>
> Am 10.09.2021 um 22:13 schrieb Raphael:
> > On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 07:20, Sascha Brawer <sascha at brawer.ch> wrote:
> >> It’s complicated. [...]
> > Thanks, Sascha, for the informative links.
> >
> > On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >> There are at least some
> >> indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see
> >> https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG
> >>
> >> But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the
> >> already mentioned simplification could be part of that)
> > Here's the situation on Monte Generoso – the light blue line is the
> > boundary according to the Regione Lombardia and the red line according
> > to swissBOUNDARIES3D:
> >
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIdJiHYAsnLMSGz6CqevYeiemCGHoqld/view?usp=sharing
> >
> > I don't know why the boundaries differ so much and so irregulary
> > (astonishingly the orthophotos from Swisstopo and from the Regione
> > Lombardia are almost congruent). In any case, the boundary from
> > swissBOUNDARIES3D runs through the boundary stones (e.g. [1]) while
> > that from Regione Lombardia doesn't. Therefore i'll not ajust the
> > boundary to that from the Regione Lombardia. Instead i'm going to move
> > it to the boundary stones that i mapped or improved. This is likely
> > not 100 % accurate (as i wrote, there are probably some boundary
> > markers on the ground, which i haven't noticed), but still better than
> > the current situation.
> >
> > [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cippo_di_confine_Monte_Generoso_n%C2%B0_24.jpg
> >
> > Best regards and a nice weekend to everyone
> >
> > Raphael
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 08.09.2021 um 22:05 schrieb Raphael:
> >>> Hello Simon
> >>>
> >>> No problem and thanks for the link!
> >>>
> >>> I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020.
> >>> [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different
> >>> from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose
> >>> position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is
> >>> pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there
> >>> is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia
> >>> and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic
> >>> systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were
> >>> disputed.
> >> As Sascha has pointed out it isn't so simple with "no disputes" but I
> >> don't think this is the cause for the mismatch. There are at least some
> >> indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see
> >> https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG
> >>
> >> But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the
> >> already mentioned simplification could be part of that)
> >>
> >> Simon
> >>
> >>> Best regards
> >>>
> >>> Raphael
> >>>
> >>> [^1]:https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/download-pacchetti?p_p_id=dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet_metadataid=%7BA1D3FFE5-BA78-43BB-8EE5-D892DC55A29F%7D
> >>> [^2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981025241
> >>> [^3]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981024609
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
> >>>> Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed
> >>>> tohttps://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/  as a potential source of
> >>>> OGD for the border.
> >>>>
> >>>> Simon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
> >>>>>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
> >>>>>> boundaries there that they could correspond to
> >>>>> Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but
> >>>>> wasn't sure anymore.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> >>>>>> right now.
> >>>>> Okay.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> >>>>>> specific issue.
> >>>>> That would be very helpful.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
> >>>>>> Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>>>> Hi Simon, hi everyone!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, the link on
> >>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders  doesn't work
> >>>>>>> anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the
> >>>>>>> boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't
> >>>>>>> access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the
> >>>>>>> boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than
> >>>>>>> there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on
> >>>>>>> ground level which i haven't noticed.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While
> >>>>>>> there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva
> >>>>>>> to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the
> >>>>>>> boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
> >>>>>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
> >>>>>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
> >>>>>> boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries
> >>>>>> are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> there are larger differences (as i
> >>>>>>> have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de
> >>>>>>> Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences
> >>>>>>> would come from simplification.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D.
> >>>>>>> Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
> >>>>>> I did.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> >>>>>> right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> >>>>>> specific issue.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Simon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi Simon
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all
> >>>>>>>>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it
> >>>>>>>>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could
> >>>>>>>>> redraw the national border with it.
> >>>>>>>> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a
> >>>>>>>> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for
> >>>>>>>> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but
> >>>>>>>> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find
> >>>>>>>> anything obvious.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But in any casehttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109  is in the
> >>>>>>>> correct place, buthttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116  seems
> >>>>>>>> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side.
> >>>>>>>> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for
> >>>>>>>> the coordinates
> >>>>>>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders  maybe), or
> >>>>>>>> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be
> >>>>>>>> visible on imagery).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Simon
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from
> >>>>>>>>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see
> >>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D  . In
> >>>>>>>>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at
> >>>>>>>>>> least currently the data is off limits.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there
> >>>>>>>>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an
> >>>>>>>>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Simon
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael<dafadllyn at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao a tutti
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su
> >>>>>>>>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine
> >>>>>>>>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta
> >>>>>>>>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza  è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM
> >>>>>>>>>>>> è in Italia. [2]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di
> >>>>>>>>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle
> >>>>>>>>>>>> coordinate?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordiali saluti
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hallo zusammen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei
> >>>>>>>>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig
> >>>>>>>>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Italien. [2]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch
> >>>>>>>>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Beste Grüsse
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> >>>>>>>>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
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