[talk-ch] Confine nazionale impreciso sul Monte Generoso / Ungenaue Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso

Simon Poole simon at poole.ch
Tue Sep 14 16:08:51 CEST 2021


Hi Raphael,

You can use swisstopo data now (but I don't think it is necessary to
change things in any case), see the mail that I just sent to this list:
http://lists.openstreetmap.ch/pipermail/talk-ch/2021-September/011262.html

Simon

Am 10.09.2021 um 22:13 schrieb Raphael:
> On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 07:20, Sascha Brawer <sascha at brawer.ch> wrote:
>> It’s complicated. [...]
> Thanks, Sascha, for the informative links.
>
> On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>> There are at least some
>> indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see
>> https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG
>>
>> But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the
>> already mentioned simplification could be part of that)
> Here's the situation on Monte Generoso – the light blue line is the
> boundary according to the Regione Lombardia and the red line according
> to swissBOUNDARIES3D:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BIdJiHYAsnLMSGz6CqevYeiemCGHoqld/view?usp=sharing
>
> I don't know why the boundaries differ so much and so irregulary
> (astonishingly the orthophotos from Swisstopo and from the Regione
> Lombardia are almost congruent). In any case, the boundary from
> swissBOUNDARIES3D runs through the boundary stones (e.g. [1]) while
> that from Regione Lombardia doesn't. Therefore i'll not ajust the
> boundary to that from the Regione Lombardia. Instead i'm going to move
> it to the boundary stones that i mapped or improved. This is likely
> not 100 % accurate (as i wrote, there are probably some boundary
> markers on the ground, which i haven't noticed), but still better than
> the current situation.
>
> [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cippo_di_confine_Monte_Generoso_n%C2%B0_24.jpg
>
> Best regards and a nice weekend to everyone
>
> Raphael
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Sept 2021 at 17:27, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Am 08.09.2021 um 22:05 schrieb Raphael:
>>> Hello Simon
>>>
>>> No problem and thanks for the link!
>>>
>>> I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020.
>>> [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different
>>> from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose
>>> position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is
>>> pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there
>>> is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia
>>> and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic
>>> systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were
>>> disputed.
>> As Sascha has pointed out it isn't so simple with "no disputes" but I
>> don't think this is the cause for the mismatch. There are at least some
>> indications that it might be partially a projection issue, see
>> https://cloud.sosm.ch/index.php/s/oJNE5P4dP3db7YG
>>
>> But in numerous places it seems to simply be different (clearly the
>> already mentioned simplification could be part of that)
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Raphael
>>>
>>> [^1]:https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/download-pacchetti?p_p_id=dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet_metadataid=%7BA1D3FFE5-BA78-43BB-8EE5-D892DC55A29F%7D
>>> [^2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981025241
>>> [^3]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981024609
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
>>>> Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed
>>>> tohttps://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/  as a potential source of
>>>> OGD for the border.
>>>>
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
>>>>>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
>>>>>> boundaries there that they could correspond to
>>>>> Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but
>>>>> wasn't sure anymore.)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
>>>>>> right now.
>>>>> Okay.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
>>>>>> specific issue.
>>>>> That would be very helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
>>>>>> Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>>>> Hi Simon, hi everyone!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Unfortunately, the link on
>>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders  doesn't work
>>>>>>> anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the
>>>>>>> boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't
>>>>>>> access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the
>>>>>>> boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than
>>>>>>> there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on
>>>>>>> ground level which i haven't noticed.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While
>>>>>>> there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva
>>>>>>> to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the
>>>>>>> boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
>>>>>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
>>>>>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
>>>>>> boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries
>>>>>> are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there are larger differences (as i
>>>>>>> have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de
>>>>>>> Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences
>>>>>>> would come from simplification.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D.
>>>>>>> Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
>>>>>> I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
>>>>>> right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
>>>>>> specific issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Simon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all
>>>>>>>>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it
>>>>>>>>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could
>>>>>>>>> redraw the national border with it.
>>>>>>>> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a
>>>>>>>> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for
>>>>>>>> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but
>>>>>>>> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find
>>>>>>>> anything obvious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in any casehttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109  is in the
>>>>>>>> correct place, buthttps://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116  seems
>>>>>>>> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side.
>>>>>>>> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for
>>>>>>>> the coordinates
>>>>>>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders  maybe), or
>>>>>>>> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be
>>>>>>>> visible on imagery).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole<simon at poole.ch>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from
>>>>>>>>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see
>>>>>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D  . In
>>>>>>>>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at
>>>>>>>>>> least currently the data is off limits.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there
>>>>>>>>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an
>>>>>>>>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael<dafadllyn at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ciao a tutti
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su
>>>>>>>>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine
>>>>>>>>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre
>>>>>>>>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta
>>>>>>>>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza  è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM
>>>>>>>>>>>> è in Italia. [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di
>>>>>>>>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in
>>>>>>>>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle
>>>>>>>>>>>> coordinate?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordiali saluti
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
>>>>>>>>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
>>>>>>>>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hallo zusammen
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei
>>>>>>>>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens
>>>>>>>>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig
>>>>>>>>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della
>>>>>>>>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Italien. [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch
>>>>>>>>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beste Grüsse
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
>>>>>>>>>>>> [2]:https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
>>>>>>>>>>>> [3]:https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
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