[talk-ch] Confine nazionale impreciso sul Monte Generoso / Ungenaue Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso

Sascha Brawer sascha at brawer.ch
Thu Sep 9 07:20:35 CEST 2021


> i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were disputed.

It’s complicated.

Die Schweiz und Italien streiten um die Landesgrenze im Hochgebirge
<https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/neue-landesgrenze-schweiz-und-italien-streiten-im-hochgebirge-ld.1546141>,
Neue Zürcher Zeitung, 2020-04-13
Italy’s Alpine Border Melts and Leaves a Pasta Restaurant In
Switzerland—Maybe
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-alpine-border-melts-and-leaves-a-pasta-restaurant-in-switzerlandmaybe-11582134089?mod=e2tw>,
Wall Street Journal, 2020-02-19
Per un pugno di metri: Svizzera e Italia rivedono i confini
<https://www.swissinfo.ch/ita/per-un-pugno-di-metri--svizzera-e-italia-rivedono-i-confini/487504>,
Swissinfo, 2009-04-14
Verlauf der Grenze zwischen der Schweiz und Italien
<https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/de/home/das-eda/aktuell/news.html/content/eda/de/meta/news/2009/8/19/28489>,
EDA, 2009-08-19
Präzisierte Landesgrenze zu Italien
<https://www.nzz.ch/praezisierte_landesgrenze_zu_italien-1.3375517>, Neue
Zürcher Zeitung, 2009-08-20
Scambio di Note tra la Repubblica italiana e la Confederazione svizzera
relativo ai confini « mobili » sulla linea di cresta o displuviale
<https://www.camera.it/_dati/leg16/lavori/stampati/pdf/16PDL0020710.pdf>,
Camera dei Deputati [d’Italia], 2008-05-26

— Sascha


Am Mi., 8. Sept. 2021 um 22:05 Uhr schrieb Raphael <dafadllyn at gmail.com>:

> Hello Simon
>
> No problem and thanks for the link!
>
> I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020.
> [^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different
> from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose
> position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is
> pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there
> is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia
> and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic
> systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were
> disputed.
>
> Best regards
>
> Raphael
>
> [^1]:
> https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/download-pacchetti?p_p_id=dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet_metadataid=%7BA1D3FFE5-BA78-43BB-8EE5-D892DC55A29F%7D
> [^2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981025241
> [^3]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981024609
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >
> > Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed
> > to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of
> > OGD for the border.
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> > Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
> > >> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM
> to
> > >> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no
> international
> > >> boundaries there that they could correspond to
> > > Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but
> > > wasn't sure anymore.)
> > >
> > >> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> > >> right now.
> > > Okay.
> > >
> > >> I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> > >> specific issue.
> > > That would be very helpful.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Raphael
> > >
> > > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
> > >>> Hi Simon, hi everyone!
> > >>>
> > >>> Unfortunately, the link on
> > >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't
> work
> > >>> anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the
> > >>> boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't
> > >>> access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the
> > >>> boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than
> > >>> there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on
> > >>> ground level which i haven't noticed.)
> > >>>
> > >>> I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While
> > >>> there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva
> > >>> to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the
> > >>> boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
> > >> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM
> to
> > >> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no
> international
> > >> boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo
> boundaries
> > >> are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
> > >>
> > >>> there are larger differences (as i
> > >>> have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de
> > >>> Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences
> > >>> would come from simplification.
> > >>>
> > >>> It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D.
> > >>> Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
> > >> I did.
> > >>
> > >> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> > >> right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> > >> specific issue.
> > >>
> > >> Simon
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Best regards
> > >>>
> > >>> Raphael
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> > >>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:
> > >>>>> Hi Simon
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all
> > >>>>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it
> > >>>>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i
> could
> > >>>>> redraw the national border with it.
> > >>>> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was
> a
> > >>>> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data
> for
> > >>>> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems,
> but
> > >>>> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find
> > >>>> anything obvious.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is
> in the
> > >>>> correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116
> seems
> > >>>> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other
> side.
> > >>>> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source
> for
> > >>>> the coordinates
> > >>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe),
> or
> > >>>> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might
> actually be
> > >>>> visible on imagery).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Simon
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Best regards
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Raphael
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> > >>>>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from
> > >>>>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see
> > >>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D
> . In
> > >>>>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume
> that at
> > >>>>>> least currently the data is off limits.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is
> there
> > >>>>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it
> simply an
> > >>>>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Simon
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:
> > >>>>>>> Hi everyone
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use
> swissBOUNDARIES3D?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Best regards
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Raphael
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael <dafadllyn at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch)
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Ciao a tutti
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è
> impreciso su
> > >>>>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di
> confine
> > >>>>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il
> confine corre
> > >>>>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la
> Cappelletta
> > >>>>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza  è in territorio svizzero – ma
> in OSM
> > >>>>>>>> è in Italia. [2]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di
> > >>>>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile
> direttamente in
> > >>>>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle
> > >>>>>>>> coordinate?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Cordiali saluti
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Raphael
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> > >>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> > >>>>>>>> [3]:
> https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> ----
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hallo zusammen
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte
> Generoso bei
> > >>>>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines
> Wissens
> > >>>>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor
> gültig
> > >>>>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen
> (Beispiel
> > >>>>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna
> della
> > >>>>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich
> jedoch in
> > >>>>>>>> Italien. [2]
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]
> korrigieren?
> > >>>>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss
> ich noch
> > >>>>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Beste Grüsse
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Raphael
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> > >>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> > >>>>>>>> [3]:
> https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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