[talk-ch] Confine nazionale impreciso sul Monte Generoso / Ungenaue Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso

Raphael dafadllyn at gmail.com
Wed Sep 8 22:05:11 CEST 2021


Hello Simon

No problem and thanks for the link!

I've found a data record with the administrative boundaries from 2020.
[^1] But strangely enough, that boundary [^2] looks totally different
from swissBOUNDARIES3D. I've connected the boundary stones, whose
position I have improved using Swissimage, with a way [^3], which is
pretty congruent with swissBOUNDARIES3D. Do you have an idea why there
is such a big difference between the boundary by the Regione Lombardia
and swissBOUNDARIES3D? This can't be because of different geodetic
systems and i've also never heard that the Swiss-Italian boundary were
disputed.

Best regards

Raphael

[^1]: https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/download-pacchetti?p_p_id=dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet&p_p_lifecycle=0&p_p_state=normal&p_p_mode=view&_dwnpackageportlet_WAR_gptdownloadportlet_metadataid=%7BA1D3FFE5-BA78-43BB-8EE5-D892DC55A29F%7D
[^2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981025241
[^3]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/981024609


On Tue, 7 Sept 2021 at 12:15, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>
> Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed
> to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of
> OGD for the border.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
> >> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
> >> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
> >> boundaries there that they could correspond to
> > Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but
> > wasn't sure anymore.)
> >
> >> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> >> right now.
> > Okay.
> >
> >> I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> >> specific issue.
> > That would be very helpful.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Raphael
> >
> > On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
> >>> Hi Simon, hi everyone!
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, the link on
> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work
> >>> anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the
> >>> boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't
> >>> access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the
> >>> boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than
> >>> there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on
> >>> ground level which i haven't noticed.)
> >>>
> >>> I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While
> >>> there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva
> >>> to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the
> >>> boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
> >> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
> >> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
> >> boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries
> >> are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
> >>
> >>> there are larger differences (as i
> >>> have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de
> >>> Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences
> >>> would come from simplification.
> >>>
> >>> It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D.
> >>> Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
> >> I did.
> >>
> >> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
> >> right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
> >> specific issue.
> >>
> >> Simon
> >>
> >>
> >>> Best regards
> >>>
> >>> Raphael
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>> Hi Simon
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all
> >>>>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it
> >>>>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could
> >>>>> redraw the national border with it.
> >>>> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a
> >>>> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for
> >>>> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but
> >>>> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find
> >>>> anything obvious.
> >>>>
> >>>> But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the
> >>>> correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems
> >>>> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side.
> >>>> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for
> >>>> the coordinates
> >>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or
> >>>> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be
> >>>> visible on imagery).
> >>>>
> >>>> Simon
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
> >>>>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from
> >>>>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see
> >>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In
> >>>>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at
> >>>>>> least currently the data is off limits.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there
> >>>>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an
> >>>>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Simon
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:
> >>>>>>> Hi everyone
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael <dafadllyn at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ciao a tutti
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su
> >>>>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine
> >>>>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre
> >>>>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta
> >>>>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza  è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM
> >>>>>>>> è in Italia. [2]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di
> >>>>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in
> >>>>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle
> >>>>>>>> coordinate?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cordiali saluti
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> >>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> >>>>>>>> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hallo zusammen
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei
> >>>>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens
> >>>>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig
> >>>>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel
> >>>>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della
> >>>>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in
> >>>>>>>> Italien. [2]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren?
> >>>>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch
> >>>>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Beste Grüsse
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Raphael
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
> >>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
> >>>>>>>> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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