[talk-ch] Confine nazionale impreciso sul Monte Generoso / Ungenaue Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso

Simon Poole simon at poole.ch
Tue Sep 7 12:15:24 CEST 2021


Sorry that this has taken so long, our Italian colleagues have pointed 
to https://www.geoportale.regione.lombardia.it/ as a potential source of 
OGD for the border.

Simon


Am 05.08.2021 um 22:32 schrieb Raphael:
>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
>> boundaries there that they could correspond to
> Thanks for the information. :) (I thought I heard that once, but
> wasn't sure anymore.)
>
>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
>> right now.
> Okay.
>
>> I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
>> specific issue.
> That would be very helpful.
>
> Cheers
>
> Raphael
>
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 at 22:09, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Am 05.08.2021 um 21:31 schrieb Raphael:
>>> Hi Simon, hi everyone!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, the link on
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders doesn't work
>>> anymore. I also can't improve the boundary with the help of the
>>> boundary stones, because some stones are missing in OSM. (I couldn't
>>> access them because they are in a fenced pasture.) Besides, the
>>> boundary from swissBOUNDARIES3D changes its direction more often than
>>> there are boundary stones. (Maybe there are some boundary markers on
>>> ground level which i haven't noticed.)
>>>
>>> I've compared the Swiss border in OSM with swissBOUNDARIES3D: While
>>> there are only minor differences on the northern boundary from Geneva
>>> to the Lower Engadine (except from the Lake Constance, where the
>>> boundaries differ up to 1.3 km),
>> There are no boundaries in Lake Constance, there are some ways in OSM to
>> close the polygons from a practical pov, but there are no international
>> boundaries there that they could correspond to (the swisstopo boundaries
>> are just as make-believe, simply slightly different dreaming).
>>
>>> there are larger differences (as i
>>> have seen up to 70 m) on the southern boundary (e.g. between Pas de
>>> Morgins and Mont Dolent). It doesn't seem that all these differences
>>> would come from simplification.
>>>
>>> It would be very helpful if we could use the new swissBOUNDARIES3D.
>>> Who asked Swisstopo at the time if we could use this data?
>> I did.
>>
>> Politically I don't think it would be a good move to try this again
>> right now. I can definitely ask OSM Italia for some help with the
>> specific issue.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Raphael
>>>
>>> On Tue, 3 Aug 2021 at 12:14, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 22:18 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>> Hi Simon
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
>>>>>
>>>>> The nodes don't seem to have changed since the import (they are all
>>>>> version 1). Where can i get the original source to check whether it
>>>>> was correct or wrong there? If the original source is correct, i could
>>>>> redraw the national border with it.
>>>> The problem could be that at the time we (well not me because I was a
>>>> neophyte at the time :-)) applied some simplification to the data for
>>>> technical reasons, which in general shouldn't cause such problems, but
>>>> maybe it is the reason here. Or something else, but I didn't find
>>>> anything obvious.
>>>>
>>>> But in any case https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930109 is in the
>>>> correct place, but https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372930116 seems
>>>> to be a bit off, it should be further to the east, on the other side.
>>>> The simplest way to fix it is to find an Italian open data source for
>>>> the coordinates
>>>> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ISTAT_Italian_Borders maybe), or
>>>> survey the boundary stone if there is one there (or it might actually be
>>>> visible on imagery).
>>>>
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 21:59, Simon Poole <simon at poole.ch> wrote:
>>>>>> The thing is that the boundaries were originally imported from
>>>>>> swissBoundaries3D with explicit permission from swisstopo see
>>>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Switzerland/swissBOUNDARIES3D . In
>>>>>> the mean time the legal situation has changed and have to assume that at
>>>>>> least currently the data is off limits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now naturally the probably more interesting question is why is there
>>>>>> such a big difference? Was this in the original data or is it simply an
>>>>>> editing error (then likely the issue can be undone).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 01.08.2021 um 21:22 schrieb Raphael:
>>>>>>> Hi everyone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can no one tell me if it is still allowed to use swissBOUNDARIES3D?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Jul 2021 at 23:11, Raphael <dafadllyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> (Unten auf Deutsch)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ciao a tutti
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ho notato che il confine nazionale sul Monte Generoso è impreciso su
>>>>>>>> OSM (errore tra 3 e 10 metri). Per quanto ne so, le cippi di confine
>>>>>>>> degli anni 1900 e 1914 sono ancora valide – ma in OSM il confine corre
>>>>>>>> accanto alle cippi di confine (esempio [1]). Inoltre, la Cappelletta
>>>>>>>> della Madonna della Provvidenza  è in territorio svizzero – ma in OSM
>>>>>>>> è in Italia. [2]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mi è permesso di correggere il confine con l'aiuto di
>>>>>>>> swissBOUNDARIES3D [3]? Posso importare lo shapefile direttamente in
>>>>>>>> JOSM, o devo ancora convertire il sistema di riferimento delle
>>>>>>>> coordinate?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordiali saluti
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
>>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
>>>>>>>> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hallo zusammen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mir ist aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze auf dem Monte Generoso bei
>>>>>>>> OSM ungenau verläuft (Fehler zwischen 3 und 10 Meter). Meines Wissens
>>>>>>>> sind die Grenzsteine aus den Jahren 1900 und 1914 nach wie vor gültig
>>>>>>>> – bei OSM verläuft die Grenze jedoch neben den Grenzsteinen (Beispiel
>>>>>>>> [1]). Ausserdem befindet sich die Cappelletta della Madonna della
>>>>>>>> Provvidenza auf Schweizer Boden – in OSM befindet sich sich jedoch in
>>>>>>>> Italien. [2]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Darf ich die Grenze mithilfe von swissBOUNDARIES3D [3] korrigieren?
>>>>>>>> Kann ich das Shapefile direkt in JOSM importieren, oder muss ich noch
>>>>>>>> eine Konvertierung des Koordinatenreferenzsystems vornehmen?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Beste Grüsse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Raphael
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8911035901
>>>>>>>> [2]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/416328502
>>>>>>>> [3]: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/geodata/landscape/boundaries3d.html
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